Bitcoin, DeFi , Yield Farming, and Ethereum Update

a live stream here man apologies for the late start it's just been a crazy morning for me here just had to finish a call um talked about some really great stuff with rendering processes uh that was really really fun so anyways uh going straight today we're gonna cover the markets we're gonna cover what happened the disaster that happened two days ago a little bit a little bit of a recap and i'm gonna gripe a little bit about few it was an attempted pump and dump that tried to defraud in essentially the whole twitter space so we'll talk a little bit about that and one of the dangerous facing this space as well we'll also talk about both the microeconomic and macroeconomic situation here because right now yeah people are asking me if i'm bearish or bullish and that depends on the time scale you're looking at things so that is gonna be one of the key discussion points of today's episode and finally today we have a very special guest this is the first time i'm bringing a guest onto this channel which is great so he's gonna come in around 20 minutes or so and we're gonna talk a lot about nfts so non-filtrable tokens just suddenly got all that heat both positive and negative publicity over the week but there is a lot going on in the nft space and this is something that we definitely don't want to miss out for so what we're gonna bring on is halfway through the episode we're gonna bring out yatsu from the ceo of animoca brands and he is someone that you want to talk to about nfts because he was very involved in early crypto kitties and his company especially and then they have sand and also rev right now on the market and all fulfilling that gaming and nft space so that's gonna be today's special episode for us today we got a lot of people who are cindy lee george goon michael sato amit misara saying notification squad awesome awesome awesome we got amit also don't talk about few it is disgusting it is absolutely disgusting i think we definitely need to look at it because i think it was one of the most despicable things like i'm i'm still kind of almost angry from this like this is a situation where it was a clear attempt at from my community to defraud people and uh yeah so many people without big names in crypto were also involved in this and i think we just need to vent out that as well just like yeah that's pretty shitty so anyways let's take a quick look at the markets here today let's make sure that i also have my stream deck is working apparently not so you know that's the magic oh yeah it is working all right so we're slightly recovering from the big big dump that happened two days ago so we were in a pretty bad downward spiral for some time so i think a lot of people are freaking out blood was on the streets you know we got ethereum continuously just dropping once and then second dip that came along uh just just right about the timing for few so that was uh maybe a coincidence maybe not but the markets overall feeling bearish especially also the traditional markets too i think now we're so closely correlated right now this whole all coin coin space and well traditional markets that all of a sudden we're looking at both to see what's going on so it's good sign that right now we are at the kind of finding some support so it's very clear especially on ethereum that support was established at 320 so yes we tried twice the bears tried twice to dump so we're just going to look a little closer more closely at that i know this is like probably the worst graph but you know that's just how i look at things now just roughly get a general feel of where our supports and resistances are so yeah bearish started dump try to dump but we we held the line roughly at 320 for the price of ethereum and bitcoin did not dump below 9 000 well let's check that yeah below 10 000 rather so yeah yet again attempt to dump it below 10 000 but yes we we managed to do it so that's actually not too bad that's actually beyond better than one one of my worst fears especially i think the situation that made me very very bullish was definitely the few incident so we'll we'll take a look at that we'll just get it out of the way first so what made me very bullish or why that whole situation made me bullish was what was few well few was a telegram group established by a few prominent members of the twitter community and they wanted to recreate the incident with meme where they can distribute a coin to themselves and then they publicize that say they publicize that tell it release it to the general public and then dump on us so like apparently it's kind of funny i mean there was a few leaked chats i think the most incriminating one was with anthony okay so it's this one right so you know they were already talking about it uh few understand meme even fewer understand rope the fewest understand few so they were trying like these guys were trying really hard to push this few thing on to us in the general public oh and they're going to create this out this coin give it to themselves maybe distribute it to a few members of community and then sell it dump it on our faces potentially and uh there was a big fall from this because they got caught red-handed essentially there were multiple screenshots that were taken and uh it got pretty bad it got pretty bad because they were caught red-handed essentially in fact anthony sassiano got caught red-handed saying you know what uh we need people to dump on like that was the the horrendous thing that they said let me just try to find a way to get the chat logs for this um so yeah so so this one anthony sassiano said yeah we need people to dump on i mean you can't even make this stuff up right so they literally tried to create this token it had no function no use case but they tweeted it out saying that this is super useful this is super awesome you guys should buy it because well why because well they need people to dump on that's great and then after this it was really funny because there was this whole attempt to say oh this is just a practical joke guys relax it's okay calm down it's all right guys um but you know they're pretty much caught red-handed right like it's like almost like a party like they were partying hard with like a bunch of drugs and then the police came in and like everyone had drugs over their faces and like okay it was all a practical joke it's fun it's okay we're just having fun relax guys it's not drugs it's just some powder but we all know what's happening and that was just the the extent of this and a lot of actual very very prominent people in crypto um especially crypto twitter got caught in this whole incident basically caught red-handed trying to show a pump and dump coin to their followers treating us pretty much like oh cattle or something even worse i don't know and the problem is like this right it's like i'm not i'm not sure if i'm you know it's like i'm just so disappointed with the space and the behavior in this space i mean at the end of the day a lot of these people are even project leaders or people who are talking about nfts and they made themselves into nfts right um you know it just revealed that this whole thing is a big scam it's it's just not just disrespectful but you kind of expect it better from people in this space um you know at least have the courtesy of hiding your username when you're going to a pump and dump group maybe you know this is just uh disgusting so anyways in the end few because what happened was that they tried to plan this pump and dump but they couldn't execute this pump and dump so it turned out to be a situation where you know they're just like oh it's a joke we didn't launch it it's a joke but anyways i hope we can recover from that i hope that is uh the case um you know that's the that's kind of the way it is uh with everything so we'll talk a little bit about that so luckily for us um you know we covered a little bit from this and i think this is kind of the situation right now if you look at the past you know few days crypto did take a huge dump especially in the d5 front so if you look at the seven day you zoom out you take a look at the whole d5 space and d5 space is taking a huge plummet i mean d5.money dropped down this is yf2 this dropped down to 3200 we got uh year in finance also you know the flagship of d5 right now uh it's dropped down to 24k nexus mutual also took a dip a huge dive this is insurance then we got followed by ren ava synthetics uh omg does a little bit of d5 not too much band so yeah 20 25 plus uh decreases in the past seven days so it's still substantial so even though right now we're having a little bit of a push-up the kind of a micro view so right now like if you look in the next few days next few weeks the micro view looks a little bit quite not a little bit understatement essentially quite bearish but that's crypto right i think something to brighten up the whole entire scene is that macroscopically something that we discovered and especially because now we found where our support is we know that d5 has legs and i think this is quite essential to remember because a lot of people um that during this phase they're like d5 is a scam it's over blah blah blah the issue here is not about d5 being a scam or not it's about complementals d5 had this insane run-up right it's not just increasing by 20 30 percent a lot of early investors especially investors that got in early on this year and that's why i'm kind of beating myself for not investing late or like very very early 2020 or either that or late 2019 during when the bear market was in full force there were people who are investing into say mta and they got it below a dollar right um the rumor here is that private contracts can go very very low so people who got it below a dollar and like private invest around like either 30 cents or 20 cents etc you know if a mta goes up to 11 dollars they're gonna just take profits right so this is what's causing that you know that dump the dump of mentals early investors who have a lot of early investments into d5 can take profits right now and that's what's happening so now it's kind of a distinguishing feature now you in terms of doing research you must really research what early investors got in on a coin ad um this actually was brought up kind of funny when i when i was looking at mta this was kind of brought up um during the public sale where people were like early investors got this for a sense guys why are you pushing this up to a dollar and there are people who are thinking that um this would dump down to less than a dollar but mta just shot up all the way right following the hype and this is where you know hype went a little bit too far um and caused the the resulting uh consequences now we have a lot of dumps where early investors take money they can dump to no matter what right they can dump to cents in fact most likely they got their initial um investment back so they can just you know afk and not care and just dump to oblivion right so that's kind of why the micro is still quite bearish is because there needs to be a profit taking round where early investors they just take profit and they dump whatever they can and then the projects can carry on so that's a microscopic round but in terms of the macro so in terms of the larger scope of everything right now we are in a time when there's so much uncertainty in every single other asset class and now with this tech war going on the tech war between u.s and china you already saw sharks getting fired last week and i think this is going to have ramifications right with trump essentially limiting wechat limiting tick tock there's supreme court challenges on this now so like the story is being updated whether or not this presidential um policy can actually be enforced but this is going to present very very interesting consequences to the whole space because now tech wise all right there might be a need there actually not might be there is a need for decentralization and also this will also go on the finance side as well right this whole tension going up restricting the flow of money becomes super key in the government's eyes and people don't like that right right now already i think this is something that i think i always say on this channel but if you guys are new and you don't understand what's happening in china china has very very severe capital controls this means china cannot chinese people cannot move more than 50 000 us dollars out of china per year that's insane right so if you're a rich billionaire you're pretty much got all your money stuck in china and this is one of the reasons why usdt and stable coins are very popular in china a lot of people don't understand this in the west and i think they still don't you still watch all these channels i think the the ones that come to mind like tone they're saying oh you know tether they're just printing all this money it's coming from nowhere well actually actually chinese people are buying all that tether update they need a way to send money overseas etc so anyways that's becoming one of the values of cryptocurrencies and going beyond that bitcoin as well being not just a form of value can transfer globally overseas without well without anyone without any centralization but also becomes a way to store value that's well consistent without the government printing millions or billions or billions or trillions of dollars right that's the crazy part so that's why i think in the macroscopic view of things you know we just had to have any bitcoin and there's a lot of tension right now in bitcoin right now bitcoin is looking to become it's kind of become a little flexing a little bit so that's kind of the word on the street the word on the street kind of within groups is now the eyes are on bitcoin not just defi all right defi is taking a little bit of a chill pill here but with bitcoin so we got some really interesting stuff going on uh we got crypto rex do they do they use anything other than usdt that you know of so this is where it gets interesting so there was a huge battle uh last year for stable coins to get the attention of the chinese right so this was huge and this is why if you look at chinese exchanges like huobi they were trying to create their own stable coins too and same with binance etc so yet last year there was this huge battle and there was lots of fun on both sides where they the the respected projects try to battle it out for now it seems that usdt is still the king is still the top i mean pax is very legit usdc is very well in terms of regulations much more legit but they never really got as much traction as usdt so there was this huge push for usdt on tron and now like everyone's using usdt on tron apparently in in asia so that's very interesting and a lot of new issuance on tron so anyways um you know credit where credit's due i'm not a big trans supporter you guys know that but you know that was the interesting case that was happening in the chinese markets um you know if you want to look more come to asia we definitely welcome you here uh i'm based in hong kong right now uh you're gonna see a hong kong background on my profile very soon but that's kind of the case all right going on there i'm just trying to get all the the content out before before long um if you guys want to see what happened with few and what what happened um there was a great um post by blockchain brad that kind of um shows all that was happening i think that was pretty interesting like that's just the amount of drama the amount of savagery that people were willing to to go and even it was kind of funny like you know they even they knew at this point you know they're like oh we might go to jail for doing this we're planning this they knew it was wrong but anyways um you know that was a great tweet so uh check out the tweet by blockchain brad and stuff on on this now speaking of more happier stuff i feel like now we have the segue to not just defy but now with the market opening up a little bit i feel like now we're kind of waiting for people to rediscover bitcoin again and we're looking at different elements so we're both looking at nft space all right that popped up crazily so i'll save that conversation for when i talk with yatsu on this but also we have this market also opening up for storage space as well so storage and compute and this is why i had one of the calls earlier with guys doing rendering stuff which is really cool use cases are expanding but obviously i think one of the kind of key points i just want to point out here obviously is that you know there were failures in the past and we must address this as well i think a lot of these subjects are very much revivals of discussion topics that happened in 2017 but never really fully took off and i think this is a year where we kind of re-examine this look at where things go wrong went wrong in the past and then try try it again and that's i guess one of the powers of crypto too if you kind of think about it you know you're gonna face problems you're gonna face hurdles that happened and i think this is a story with defy too right all of a sudden you know back in 2017 2018 defy was already being discussed but no one really jumped on board there were early instances of decentralized exchanges right with idex or ether delta and no one liked that because it was just so clunky to use if you ever want to do an order on idex or ether delta it was so primitive but overcoming those hurdles moving this year we saw the power of uniswap being able to have this automated market making all of a sudden that was a game changer for a lot of projects who needed that extra liquidity but couldn't trust normal market makers to do it so all of a sudden we see this year you know all the exchangers are just like listing defy stuff crazily i mean yesterday uh we saw finance listing two big projects too we had um the finance has now has an innovation corner and they immediately listed two projects that were very involved in the binance smart chain so yesterday they let's see and there's so much news on this stuff it's crazy where they list bake a burger and bake let me think let me just make sure that's right because there's so many food coins now i'm also like there's so many there's so many food chains on binance it's just that you got to make sure the the names are right let me just double check here this is the one we want all right so neo loans neo uh isolated margins blah blah blah all right so yeah so this was on their innovation zone burger swap and bakery swap so i got that right so these are two projects that i was actually mining as well um yeah that's crazy it's basically uniswap on on binance smart chain but being binance smart chain is fully ethereum vm compatible and it's faster so now they're trying to really push that ecosystem i see a very big difference between how binance is treating the binance smart chain and how they're treating um the previous projects because previously they hinted that projects will get listed but now they're just listing it at a more aggressive pace and you can see that this is due to competition the more competition there is the more aggressive players have to play so this is essentially burger swap and they actually made it look very much similar to binance but it's essentially unit swap basically you can take assets and one of the key things here that's also quite interesting is that you can switch right so why i have the bridge over can bridge erc assets to bp and now you can also swap if you're on a binance smart chain and this just involves a very quick switching of uh the network from uh binance smart chain to ethereum you can also use metamask but this is exactly functions like well just regular uniswap like it's super fast super efficient um etc etc there so you can actually see that the speed at which things are being developed is extremely fast um you know you can actually bridge assets over and i actually didn't know that before so now i can actually bridge your assets over from ethereum to binance chain and i use the swap function there which is faster so that's actually kind of crazy the whole the speed that everything is moving and that goes to to how the space develops i think in the space of two months it feels like two years i'm here like this is so much right from starting from all the yield farming yield farming aggregators to uniswap clones a sushi swap the food coins right all your food sushi sake your moon swap your moon's not really a coin but you get the picture and now burger bakery um there was also sashimi and salmon and essentially you can't even talk about food without being a cryptocurrency now so that's a that's a scary part right so that's kind of the situation right now um but yeah so right now i feel like there's a lot of people who are concerned all right there's cream almost forgot cream there i'm actually pretty big in cream but a lot of yield farming and a lot of stuff going on so right now we actually have yatsu here let me just go very quickly let me go and push out and talk to you about my podcast whilst i get this chat going on let me get everything started and going on line so let me i highly recommend you check out bitcoin out of the box which is my official podcast and it's all about bridging that knowledge gap between privileged institutional investors and us the average retail investor this season we're going deep into uncovering a lot behind the technology behind what's in crypto and also diving deep into defy space as well it contains episodes not featured on this youtube channel it goes in a lot of detail you can listen to it on the go anywhere you want it's on apple podcast spotify anywhere listen to it on your car on a run it's going to get you enlightened in the space make sure you check it out okay so this is the most seamless transition i can do so hi everyone say hi to yatsu um he is he's someone super famous actually i didn't know how famous you were but you know being part of animoka brand super early you guys had a lot of exposure to non-fungible assets including crypto kitties you guys were very deeply involved and also now with sandbox um and also rev as well so first time on a channel for you like this is the first introduction but i've also obviously had a few discussions and very deep discussions on nft space so do you want to give a mini introduction and i'll try to fix my camera so right well uh absolutely well okay happy to be here um so as i mentioned i'm yat i'm the chairman and co-founder of animoka brands um but my own background actually i i've been sort of in gaming for well since the 80s my very first job was with atari actually yeah back in the 80s and so i have a have a little bit of a history there and i've been lifelong gamer and then um you know when i came when i moved to hong kong um i actually set up one of hong kong's first internet service providers called hong kong online in the early 90s so i'm really dating myself uh and and so me you know being in this whole blockchain space gives me sort of goosebumps of of the memories of the internet days in the mid 90s i see it at a similar stage and that gets me really excited uh maybe in terms of uh sort of what we are doing now is we've been doing sort of commercial video games with branded games now for well over a decade uh and uh you know one of the studios that we were working closely with and actually ended up acquiring a company called fuel powered in vancouver um it's co-found it's a founder of that business uh ended up becoming the co-founder of crypto cities uh in 2017 so we got a front row seat as a result we became the distributors of cryptocurrencies in the region became an early shareholder in what now is dapper labs uh and uh and we saw the potential of what non-fungible tokens could do to our industry uh and from a video games perspective and so went all in right so we we we invested in decentraland we invested in opensea we we basically launched sandbox which recently had the sand token launch in binance and of course there's a rev token as well for formula one um and and but also have made multiple investments in the space so we're not only just making our own content we're trying to help seed the ecosystem by investing in companies so we are also one of the first or early shareholders in um in axie infinity um you know uh last year as well uh so you know many of the sort of blockchain gaming projects that you're seeing out there that are getting some attention we've been um we've been involved with them for maybe in some cases uh two years now so so yeah so it's a it's a it's a it's a an interesting time uh we've always been big believers in the space um and i'm hoping that that will sort of evolve into something um greater and much more meaningful that's awesome and also just just very quickly i'm trying to get the audio fixed but the best way and and i think this is the issue of zoom is that zoom is horrific for audio so okay oh is it louder now are you louder yeah i'm just i'm just changing changing whoa okay i'm just all right yeah i changed my gain on oh yeah okay so so careful guys um okay so yeah yeah um let's okay i think you're in a very yeah you're in a perfect time so great and i think this is um super awesome um so hope that didn't blow your ears out um but i think like something that's cool about nfts i mean this is something that's very interesting i actually had a very um cool background share with yeah because we are both gamers he's a lot more og than i am um obviously and he's done a lot more than i have in the space as well so lots of credits there and i think something that's um very involved in why he's one of the perfect guests right now is because with the nfc and nft and nft discussion coming up he's been there for like years now right like early investor he's like the 10 cent of nfc's i just got like um equity and almost everything in this space right so now you definitely see a lot of opportunities but obviously there were i think this is something that we discussed before right you know in terms of expectation is this you know do you think that we're where where are we in the adoption phase in your um eyes yeah so we're still very very early right i think my view is that i think we've kind of maybe finally crossed that where we went from the innovative stage into the beginnings of the early adopter stage uh and one of the things that i've you know one of the narratives that two years ago we were definitely excited about was that well look there's like over two billion gamers out there and they they could use this concept of sort of real assets in games so there was some effort and thought done around that but then we came to realize actually wait hold on a second there's like 47 to 50 million crypto wallets out there and there's only 150 000 of them that have an nft so it became very clear to us earlier in the years that actually the the awareness within the crypto community itself on nfts was super early so even though we're seeing right now you know obviously a little bit of hype and a little bit of excitement a little bit of things many of the people who are coming into the space are like what is an nft oh i heard about crypto kitties but i don't really know that much about it right because of the non-fungible nature you can't trade it immediately or at least in a specific thought you can't trade immediately so many of them are just like i don't really know about this so i'm going to move on and they never went deeper into this so there is an actually more sort of shorter term opportunity as well to sort of you know bring the early adoption cycle into the crypto community right so we've got a global early adoption cycle but you've actually got a micro early adoption cycle within the crypto community which is just broad awareness of nfts right and it just blew me away when when we discovered that you know you know a single digit percentile of of uh of crypto guys actually have an nft yeah i think so too and and like recently we saw like a few projects try to kick off you know there's nfts for art there's nfts for video games there's nfts for and something that's interesting it's not just video games but also intellectual property as well that's kind of interesting and now we're exploring the assets of like smart nfts or maybe nfts representing land etc so we're at this early adoption phase obviously i think uh for me obviously i i wanted the two billion gamers to get on board right to immediately say yo you know like let's get this let's let's let's push crypto adoption forward it's it's uh potentially a low hanging fruit but also we've been you know it's it's starting out and i i think that the the issue here is the management of expectations right and i think you know you've been in gaming space for a long time you probably know that starting out isn't as easy as most people think it is right i think it's not going to be a magic overnight thing and do you see that as also coming for nfts like do you see that's coming as a very slow adoption or okay well maybe to to draw sort of take one of the things about gaming which is amazing is it may start slow but when it picks up it goes boom right i mean we've seen this with mobile games we've seen this with pc games right the gaming industry is one of those things where because the game itself is fun or cool or interesting it can have massive adoption because of the game itself and then drives an industry forward just because of it in fact gaming often leads industries forward i mean if it wasn't for gaming then you probably wouldn't have nvidia be the size that it is or a and d right because who buys graphic cards right you know it's all for gamers right or you would have companies like razer or companies like corsair they wouldn't they wouldn't emerge what would the smartphone be like without angry birds or mafia wards right or candy crush right you know it's it's in fact the top grossing uh and and top usage uh for mobile apps in the beginning was all driven by games so i think that's why we believe that gaming is going to also drive mass adoption for blockchain and i i still believe in that right um but i think one of the things here that's happening is that the paradigm is different and i think the paradigm for gamers in this ecosystem is value right actually for the first time as a gamer i can actually realize or at least maintain or have value in the time i put in right you know spending and playing games is proof of work and it's damn hard work right we're spending time we're playing we're doing stuff we're putting effort but the only one who benefits is the game company itself and now because of blockchain and crypto we can actually find a mechanism whether it's in the form of tokens or in the form of these nfts where i can accrue or create or maintain value right so that's exciting but similar to the smartphone phase 10 years ago people still needed to have sort of get comfortable with this until there's that breakout i remember because we were doing console games as well and getting our console developers to make mobile games in 2010 it was like why would i play on the smaller screen with limited functionality right it's like that's not interesting at all right and so we had an almost revolt from the developers they're like i'm not touching that that's that's denigrating that i would be making games you know i'm making games for for for sony playstation and now you're asking me to make a game on this like shitty little apple like i'm not gonna do that right of course now they're probably all working on mobile games but that was that was back then same thing because because people didn't understand it right and that's and back then the paradigm for mobile games was around simplicity bringing in people who could become good gamers with a swipe of a finger right that that was a real innovation making making gaming sort of available for amateurs because until then you needed to know how to use the keyboard and the mouse and the controller and now i think the paradigm is valued right and we have to educate on that um i think so too i i just want to just zone it talk very quickly and just just to answer people on the volume stuff i'm trying to get our volumes to level but um yeah if you can move your mic a little bit closer um okay sure okay cool yeah before this is better i'm literally kissing the microphone but sure excellent yeah me too me too me too okay um so i hope our voices don't collide i'm just trying to fix the volume this is like the worst thing about doing live streams but yeah um something i want to say there is also yeah you definitely saw the effects of the kind of snobbiness from game developers early on because you know um we saw some batch of very poorly made triple a type of mobile games i mean there was assassin's creed they actually tried to bring that over so early it was a big failure because it tried to replicate what the games did on consoles like it's 3d it's uh the gameplay was kind of almost like assassin's creed but the issue here was that the mature game devs didn't want to touch mobile because they're they're saying oh i'm doing you know playstation it's awesome we have all this tech here why touch apple and then the b team went on to make the games because otherwise they'll be without a job and then it ended up being terrible games because people didn't pay attention to that right people didn't it was a b team making a game but they weren't spending full effort on it and i feel like that's almost the case with blockchain right now where in terms of the big companies they don't want to touch blockchain right they're like oh you know it's this blockchain what what's there for me tier i mean you see all the game cycle and hype all coming on with playstation 5 oh it's um you know uh you got ray tracing oh my god and then and then all this like fancy tech to make it all the graphics look amazing but you don't see the the a tier developers moving into blockchain and um you know i think that's that's good that's that's expected for early tech but what do you think would be the biggest push for big game devs to bring their a team the top game into crypto and i think that's probably the challenge we're looking for right well i mean i think first of all um you know when you think about the early mobile game days it's true that the a teams from the big studios didn't enter that space partially because the studios didn't see the money in it and it was also disruptive to their business model that's why they didn't embrace it but you know is is is rovio a b team you know when they started it i don't know actually i think that they were actually for what they created it was an a team effort because what they innovated on yes and i think i need to fill that in it's um it's like um there are many teams that are um because that became a teams but i'm talking about the big triple a studios like whether it's epic or whether it's like you know the ones that already that already had you know the console game component but obviously we have something like um what's it yeah your rovio and also what's the guys who's the guys behind yeah supercell they're a team but yeah but they weren't you know they weren't around prior to mobile right they they started off with mobile so they became a teams from mobile right so yeah so so so maybe but just to finish the teams that were building those actually came from gaming before right so the supercell team and the rovio team were all ex-digital chocolate guys so they weren't talking about people who never touched games before actually they knew their stuff and i think the difference that's happening with uh the early early blockchain games you know we're talking 2017 2018 type of stuff right was that uh they were came from blockchain guys who never made games so that's different right um but then and so that's kind of like um smartphone games 2010 and then around or like more like 2009 and then 2010 2011 you had the guys who were actually from the gaming industry and said you know what mobile is really interesting and i'm not i'm not gonna get you know my my uh my game studio to do it i'm i quit and i'm gonna enter that that field that was where that phase was and i think that's the phase that is starting in the last 12 months right and that's kind of what what we're seeing now so so you know sandbox those guys are game developers for the last 10 years actually longer than that but from well you know so so they are people who know how to make games but just like real games you don't launch a game in three months right i mean many of those early crypto games was like yeah let's go three months here we go here's a great crypto game and where's the game right um it takes a couple years to make a really good game and so i think the real results of the quality of what you're seeing is going to come out in the next six to 12 months i really believe that we're going to get that adoption from the quality hopefully hopefully fingers crossed i think so i think i think so i think like you're right in a sense that the that early on it was blockchain developers making games and then they were realizing oh crap making a game is really hard it's a craft that people people hone for like 10 20 years right you know all these studios they actually have game developers that have been quite experienced and and you you also understand this too if you look at you know even like something like league of legends their game designers didn't come out of nowhere right both um ice frog and ginsu were um big big um dota game designers right they worked on the original dota for fun for passion and then they started respectively um league of legends and dota 2 right so they they came from a background where they really understood gaming and i think that's something that um a lot of blockchain guys aren't used to where they don't know it they just don't know it they don't realize how much of a craft game design is and i think that's probably the biggest problem with all this hype around blockchain gaming where there's a ridiculous amount of expectations you look at the whole d5 space and people expect you know 10x 100x moon or you know 100x growth and user base but here it would actually take time for a game developer to understand or actually not game developer a designer to understand okay how do you make the economics of a game work around trading because that's or trading or nfts or make these elements work and it's much easier said than done and i think that's my biggest pet peeve with this whole crypto space where people look at all these examples i talk like a nerd i'm like oh just look at the diablo 3 talk where they said how item trading completely destroyed their game they're pretty much just blatantly said that and actually disabled their auction house right because trading just just killed their game they just killed their core game loop and people don't realize that they're like saying oh we should add trading to hearthstone i mean there's a legit that's also because diablo was designed uh not to have that it's an inflationary design right it's it's a different loop right and and so i think that's where the difference is i think what you have here uh like the the example i like to give in this one is for you know crypto games was originally built by bankers right so hold up guys were trading in crypto and imagine guys some guys from like morgan stanley like we should make a game right so that's kind of that's how it started off we like trading we like money let's make a game because everyone loves trading and money right that's exactly what we're seeing right now or have been seeing but but silently but powerfully i would say you've got a number of companies that are actually making games coming from games background but where i think the the the part that has been harder from a talent standpoint is you have to find a gamer or game company or studio that has a financial ethos and a value system behind them that supports that right it's the same idea between sort of paid games which was the pre-mobile to free-to-play premium models right the premium business model was completely something that the you know it wasn't it wasn't just objection towards playing up like you know going from console to to mobile games it was the objection of wait i can make a game i can work on it for three or four years and then i sell it for 60 bucks see how it goes per game as opposed to this game is entirely free and you have to create a core game loop to entice them to pay and buy these virtual assets and items it's a it's a it's a very different challenging mode and many developers didn't like that idea that they were basically creating premium games so it's a a business model disruption that also changed it right yeah and that's what we're seeing too and so that gap is small just like the mobile game developers you have a you have a you know i would say it really became mainstream in terms of broader studios literally four or five years later in the mobile game space but in between companies like you know rovio became more you know huge enterprises and you know we saw angry birds plushies all over the world uh by that time yeah so i think it's it's definitely a game model and i think it's not as easy as like that's the that's i think that's definitely my pet peeve where people who are traders like essentially us right uh us in crypto space we're big traders we love trading obviously because we deal with this stuff and we expect everyone else to do the same it's it's a change it's a transition in business model which will take time to come so i feel like this is where a situation where um and a lot of people need to understand that video games take years to make two so one of my biggest pet peeves where people like ah why don't fortnite just make nfts with their items like okay first of all fortnite items aren't tradable for a reason that's part of their core monetization loop their monetization is on the fact that items can't be traded and there's a purpose for that so they can't just make an nft let people trade items that would just completely kill the revenue and it's it's the wrong monetization model but now we're moving to a point where we can have a better discussion sorry i'm nerding out with yad here um you know there's a lot of stuff there's a lot of depth in this which i think it takes time and i think just zooming out a bit before we kind of lose our audience and people who don't play games that much now we see the growth of nft space and we see this uh we renewed interest in this space right um do you think we're moving in the right direction though i mean we've seen both art uh we talked more a little bit more about the art side of things about the rarity of things about and a little bit less about gaming do you think that's the right direction do you think we need to push it back straight towards gaming no i think i think it all adds to the the conversation right one of the things that we found that when we did rev and we did sand you know sand was you know selling land and doing quite well but you know we had you know thousands of people playing it right like it was we're not talking about typical crypto gaming numbers 3000 dlu wow right it's like in the gaming world it's like you know in our traditional games we have 15 million users right now and that's like we're considered average okay yeah so so imagine 15 million gamers going on crypto suddenly you know tomorrow or overnight they're completely i don't i don't know which network could handle it but anyway that aside right um i think i think when we when we issued the token uh sand ended up getting 120 000 owners of the sand token and then they and that was a language they understood right they're like oh i can have a fungible token that can be traded but why right so it forced them to you know beyond the hype to study well what's the utility for sand why is that exciting oh there's nfts what's an nft you can buy land you can develop on that oh gaming economy how does that work right so in the process of listing a token we ended up educating and bringing into the fold of the community 120 000 people which would have never otherwise entered that right so so it's about bridging this right and i think the token is effectively like a virtual currency of any game that's out there but now has a sort of financial element and you know right now when you see all this defy movement right it has always been about you know really you know with all the food groups and everything it's it's really been about the fun and gamification of finance but i think there's a broader larger global opportunity which is around actually bringing finance to games uh and i think that's what i'm really excited about because you know we learn a lot through games today right our children do that as well but actually one of the main things we don't learn in school is finance in fact most people learn about finance when they get in debt when they go to college they sign up a loan and they get a credit card and then they are surprised what is 20 or 30 apr the next thing they know they're like shit i've got like debt up the wazoo because i i don't know how to repay that and nobody taught me how to do financial planning because you know it's a dirty thing or i get an allowance it's all nothing is financial right why should we not actually play games that have value in economic systems right from the beginning because that is how the world works you know how much better would the world be if you know everyone had basic financial understanding by the time they went to college right i think i think we would all have a completely different ecosystem we would have more sophisticated financial product but we would have also more savvy economics out there because you wouldn't have basically stupid investing because they don't know how to do that right so i think that's a big opportunity there and gaming is mainstream right tv and radio or or or newspapers were one avenue of bringing knowledge to people but now it's games and we can simulate that and financial education is that's actually a very fun way to think about it right um for sure like you know i've been through the education system they don't teach you anything about finance in fact most of finance i got through either video games because i was playing always playing world of warcraft and i was actually really good at the economic side of it or i got from crypto because crypto is brutal right you make one wrong mistake in in crypto you lose like 95 of your money overnight and that's happened to a lot of people and then that's when you have to learn okay how to do risk management properly that's how you learn when you have to um so so so that's a very interesting thought but but the counter argument here is now when you have financial assets real financial assets in video games right then doesn't that introduce people under 18 to potentially gambling as well well i mean i think is it is it gambling when people are trading baseball cards or is it gambling when people are doing collections i mean and i i understand that there's a fine line between that right i think the area that excites us is about bringing mass adoption and financial education and real value into into gaming through this means that people can you know ultimately play with like ten dollars or five dollars right and you know when you lose ten dollars and it's 95 of your value they're like oh my goodness i lost 95 of value but it's ten dollars right it's like it's like when people play monopoly and they end up using or play mahjong or play play card games it's play money right but it's also education and you get smarter for it over time where it becomes painful is when you actually have you know more significant savings and then you start sort of delving into the financial world which is by the way what most people do because when they actually get a paycheck they actually have more money and then they start putting money into some stuff they don't understand and then oh shit i lost everything you know that it's a far more painful lesson than doing it when you're a child and when you're educated and i think that we see that with the nft space too right so we see baseball cards moving on to the nft space we saw wax doing that with um garbage pail kids we saw um kind of more of the artsy collecting side so are you doing anything with the artsy collecting side are you doing um you know how are you using these nfts right now in your so i mean i think the so for one of the we definitely are moving very harsh harsh harsh so very very aggressively into the uh into the uh collectible space because we think you know collectibles and art and so on that's like a 300 70 billion dollar market right i mean our formula one car that we sold last year the first one the one one one sold for 450 each right and it's just like a lot of money for a virtual car uh but but who would pay for that like who who in their right mind would buy that like that's insane right this is like well well i mean i don't know like i mean do you consider what's happening in in nft space now sort of you know sensible or not but i'll get to that point first because you know a picasso you know is worth tens of millions of dollars why is it worth tens of millions of dollars and is it worth tens of millions of dollars to you know 10 million people or is it worth tens of millions of dollars really to an exclusive group of people who care about the value of provenance of this and this is where non-fungibles is really exciting right because non-fungibles is a way to create personality and is a way to create individuality on objects that we can treasure through history through moments to whichever right it's like it's like wedding rings right um you know if i pass a wedding ring from my great-grandmother you know within my particular family it's priceless but the you know the silver that it's made of is not worth much at all if i give that to someone else i either melt it down it's worth nothing but the actual ring itself is priceless within that right and those memories are attached to that's how value is generated that's why stamps are worth that much that's why like first edition baseball cards you know from bay booth or something are worth millions of dollars right um but it's not worth millions of dollars because you have you know an active fungible trading market for it where millions of people will bid for it it's valuable because maybe only 30 or 40 people who are collectors value that and then it expands beyond that right i mean that's how christie's and sotheby's and the auction markets uh auction markets work right so so that's another episode you bring up the art episode and i think i think this is one of the biggest debates because i i was very pessimistic about this um i'm the very i'm a i'm a very real person right i feel like i'm like i'm grounded i'm like okay maybe the first time you sell a car maybe you can proxy bit it yourself this happens both in um in art and probably in crypto right or you can sell an art i i don't believe that all these things are being sold for this amount of money right because many are not right so only only some have high prices but many are sold generally for you could say more reasonable prices but there's usually reasons behind it yeah because there's a digital item right and the thing is like what's the what what differs this item from just say a simple jpeg i put on my phone right um like let's say you have a picasso at least there's brush strokes on it you know at least at least i know that you know this is this piece of art is appreciable by people on my walk and put i can put on my wallet yo guys check out my picasso now that's great it's social it's social but but an image on your phone you're like yo guys check out check out my image of a picasso on my phone this is so cool i spent like thirty thousand dollars on it and so that doesn't you say that yeah it doesn't work right that the social element is completely lost if it's a pure image uh then it doesn't have that value because of course everyone can just replicate it but the point is that if you know that it's certified original within a community that values it it becomes valuable as a result it's like if i have a picasso in my home how many people uh can actually really determine whether it's real or not right but amongst those who know that it's real it's like whoa this is like super cool this is like fantastic right but for most of them who don't understand anything about it it's just another image right so again it's not meant to be uh sort of necessarily for something that's and especially with art right something that's appealing to every single person like modern art right the way that it sells most people look at it and say i don't really understand what's so great about it right our creative director kevin abosh you know he sold a photo of a potato for a million years dollars right famously and uh and and and the crypto rose was also very very very valuable it's it's part of the story it's the history it's the background right in the case of a formula one car it's the one one one it's the very first car ever that's officially formula one minted on the blockchain is that worth ten dollars or is that worth a hundred thousand dollars don't know but what you do know is that it's a very first car and because it's blockchain there can never be another number one car right it's like the first edition certifiable that way now the other um sort of point i would make is that we are more and more living in metaverses or basically in virtual universes right so the recognition of that becomes more important to us in the past you know the real world was important so you know i would carry a real you know maybe for you know our parents generation might be sort of wanting to wear rolex for instance and some people bought fake rolexes right but the person who bought the fake rolex he aspires to buy a real rolex right he doesn't say hey i have a fake rolex that's great i'm smarter than you most of the time they're like i wish i had a real rolex but i'm buying a fake one because i can sort of at least say that i'm this or i'm that right um and with blockchain that certification is instant so someone can take a copy of the one one one but everyone in that social crowd which is everyone who has a wallet or anyone who knows crypto is going to say that's fake right is that cool or do you start looking like a bit of a you know a bit of a loser because you want to pretend you're something you're not but you spend so much money on something you cannot like i guess i guess it's just like for me it's the absurdity of the amounts right for me like i would say yo look you know you collect the card i mean in fact i i don't want to be hypocrite here because i issued my own nfts at the start of this nft thing like all the way back in 2018 2019 i created a bunch of entities just for fun to give it out for free right like for me that that makes more sense i'm giving these things out for free they're like collectible box mining items i got a pirate box mining i got a another collectible part these are collectibles sure but i like i never aspire to sell something like that even like one one one box mining number one issue i never said okay i wanted to sell it for millions of dollars because i don't think it's worth millions of dollars i think like that's because that's because you didn't think it was millions of dollars and that's okay right but maybe someone else thought it was worth a lot but why i mean that's how it works okay okay but but like i i think the biggest struggle for me is like okay for me it's like the functionality right if if one one one car is like say 50 times faster than other every other car and i can race this car and be race with this car and beat every other player that's worth money because i you know my past history was with um gaming right so my this is why i connect very well with yad is where where i designed a monetization of video games and it was very clear that players didn't want to just be collectors right that people paid money to have an advantage in video games so not only were the collectible items and this is something you see in a cross pay to win games right it's very you know that's pretty much all mobile games right now where players not only pay for an additional costume especially in the asian markets you pay for more power so this costume like in chinese games skins equals the power in western games not as much i mean you buy a skin in fortnight you can show off to your friends that's great but in china chinese games and in asian games you buy a skin that skin is going to give you stats it's going to make you faster it's going to make you stronger it's going to make you better then you can trash all your other people and i think that was expected in the asian market and this is something that i feel like um if sure if i would spend extra money on buying that car if i'm very involved in that video game and i want that extra speed but how do you kind of okay a are you giving power for the extra car and b how do you justify value if there is no stats attached to it okay so first of all uh are the in this case it was an apex class car and the apex class cars do have more power however they're not completely sort of op as it were right because i think one of the things that when it comes to game design is that if you create a completely play to win environment then you have uh it's really difficult right people it is yeah it just kills the game so so that doesn't really work right but what you see uh with that is is that uh you know the models that can emerge from that is is that you know maybe you can have better drivers you can rent out the car someone else can use it but someone with more skill in the game can actually uh sort of maybe beat you as well right so it's not just about the power of the car there is a skill element involved as well but you have certain advantages but it's not sort of complete op kill right type of advantages so that's from the apex apex uh class cars now but why would i why would i own this well i mean you know if you recall counter-strike right which is you know has a very large skin trading business and some of those skins uh sold for 50 to 60 000 that's not even on blockchain it's not even permanent right um why would you pay that kind of money for skin well it's because i'm out there killing people with my favorite skin and people get to see that and within that community it became valuable because they knew the guy with that skin is out there and what was interesting there is other creators would make skins and sell them and then of course they would say i only make 10 or 20 of them but again it's within that counter-strike universe in fact that's how wax with op skins started right that's where they're like wait hold on you know we're trading you know you know hundreds of millions of dollars in these skins actually maybe there's something there with blockchain and that was really the beginning of how wax started right uh so so the gaming industry had this already i mean second life right it's gdp is uh 200 million dollars plus right eve online i mean for those who know the gaming it's implied gdp is like 60 million people trading digital assets right i think people forget that uh in the gaming industry when you look at the bmv parabras atelier report you know they say a hundred billion dollars were spent on these virtual goods uh last year uh and and so people are buying them they're already valuing them you just go go on ebay people are selling pokemon accounts selling virtual gold world of warcraft in 2006 people are you know farming and mining that type of stuff it was probably maybe the earliest form of proof of work why would they do that it's not just the utility right it's it's to show off it's it's what we see in the real world and i think the shift here that's interesting is the value shift right which is that you know we we from a certain generation we look at the things in the real world like where i live when my friends come to my house what do they see that kind of stuff but we're now also in the more virtual element like for instance you know my kids my daughter she doesn't really care about her virtual appearance i mean sorry her physical appearance but she cares about her virtual appearance she cares about how many followers she has on instagram she cares about you know what people say on that but she doesn't necessarily want to go hang out in sort of the the next coolest sort of you know sort of a bar or whatever to be seen to be recognized by you know paparazzi or something it's just more on the virtual side and so the virtual sort of credibility has risen tremendously um because and and that's the value that comes from that we're living in slightly different times here and i think the exciting part is is that gamers already spend that kind of money right this is not a this is not a case of why would you spend that right and the other thing is as you well know gaming is a whale market as well right i mean you know what are people buying in fortnite skins right they're not buying anything around utility they're buying skins and i think we can probably imagine if fortnite and they're probably not going to do it if fortnite was offering a skin trading market with actual scarcity attached to it that much like counter-strike the skins themselves would accrue an increase in value because of who made it what happened to it and this is where the value of non-fungible tokens becomes exciting because your history and your record is attached to it right if i use the pickaxe and i climbed down everest with that one right then that pickaxe is super valuable if i buy a cup from ikea it's not valuable but if i get you know taylor swift to autograph it it instantly increases in value right yeah even though i think i definitely agree i think like i think there's certain people who get very emotionally attached to stuff like i think it's harder for me to understand because um i i am not emotionally attached to items this is the worst part about me as a person right so when i play diablo 3 i will get these epic weapons right you get these really great weapons and just before i sleep i will sell that weapon because i know that the weapon inflation is going up there's a power creep more and more powerful weapons are being found so this weapon might be worth 30 a day but when i wake up it's going to drop in price right the dumplementals are there so every day before i slept when i was playing diablo 3 i would dump my item even though i might have beat the game with it i might have thrown sentimental attached to my weapon i'm like screw this i'm going to dump that on the auction house someone else you go play with it you go buy it all right have fun tomorrow when i wake up i have thirty dollars right i got thirty dollars i got thirty dollars of real money right and i just buy them the better item and that's it right so i think that there's a difference there i think there um and i feel like i think just just on that point i think that's a very valuable point here because that's why the auction house failed because it was inflationary in its design right because people knew well not yeah not just that but it became the core loop of the game and i think this is one thing that also is a problem in crypto i think a lot of people think that trading is fun we think it's fun but blizzard realized that once it became a core loop for diablo it killed the game because now the most optimal way to play diablo 3 and i experienced this myself is to play the auction house you sit there you go medieval auction house you play the game done now you're the best person at diablo why because you're rich right so so this is a situation where i feel like this is the biggest challenge to a trading market or transactional market or fortnight having this where if you short circuit the game and make it about trading because that's one of the biggest powers there if once trading becomes a core pillar of the game you short circuit the game people stop going out to farm monsters like it's not efficient i don't want to kill monsters i just want to play auction house and then that kills the entire game because auction house isn't fun for most people or not for most people but for many people people play games to kill monsters right that's the whole point i think i think there's two parts right one of them is as a player right you can sort of farm and there's an income aspect of it that's we think that's exciting because there's other people who might buy in an auction house in the place i think if there's scarcity involved also you you might be less likely to sell because you think like well maybe this could be more valuable or i can still use it for a while so that's a trading element but to your point about sort of you know that there's a danger not certainly for some games that the auction house of the trading element becomes the main loop of the game right i think to me that is both the positive actually and the negative but the positive side is that to me it opens up a new type of gameplay that hasn't existed before right and and you know whether whether this is going to be a game system that's going to completely change the world or whether it's a kind of game that doesn't exist today because it wasn't possible before and becomes essentially a sort of large niche like strategy games right strategy games is you know has hundreds of millions of games right like tower defense that type of game it's not for people who play fortnite or pubg but it's certainly for a certain sort of group of people who love strategy games that's a new industry for instance right you have new genres emerge from it you know like you know match three is a new genre that was emerged because of the element of um of the smartphone basically using the finger and swiping those type of mechanisms essentially became really a genre of its own uh because because of smartphone and so the question here is will sort of true digital ownership as through these non-fungible tokens uh and and sort of a real sort of property rights for gamers will this become a candy crush style new genre that will sort of get a lot of people excited or will it be like strategy gamers where maybe only hundreds of millions of people will say that's fun right from a global perspective right so we think we so because remember we're talking about a space that is you know fascinatingly fast in terms of nfts is like a 300 million dollar market right now in terms of people trading these assets and items in various ecosystems you know driven by 150 000 people okay it's a whale market for sure it is absolutely but and do we think what do you think this market will be like if there's only a million of them or five million or ten million like that's we're still talking small numbers here right so and i think sometimes when people talk about oh but you know 2.6 billion gamers they're not going to all play this that's true they might not but what if you get five percent of them to play or ten percent or hey one percent right that to me is already a large number right and you know many of the big game companies out there you know they're not making another fortnight right but they're the leaders in strategy games or they're leaders in match three or they're leaders in simulation games and those already a billion dollar enterprises by themselves right so i think i think it's it's exciting because it's either brand new genre that's going to be a big niche or it's going to potentially take over the entire gaming industry because everyone wants to do their ownership and because we're early both are you know both are avenues you can write for the time being i think so i think there's a few great discussion points are brought up here and i think it's like i think it's one of the most deeper discussions here because obviously um yeah has been in a space for such a long time and we we've seen it all right and i think i've seen quite a lot of the the developments as well and you know there's a certain expectation sometimes i think in crypto games that we're going to immediately get mass adoption that billions of gamers coming in and i think um it's much harder than we originally thought it would be that's at least for me anyway sorry i i thought no that's true though and i think one of the things that we're now doing is you know with our experiences with sand and red is that we're also looking to bring in the sort of crypto community into the gaming and nft space because there's so few of them right so if you think about what's the sort of lower hanging fruit is it to bring people who don't know anything about crypto into crypto gaming or is it about people who already at least have a wallet and are sort of into crypto into gaming right and i think there's a there's a shorter term lower hanging fruit to go after those guys and we see this with so make crypto people into gamers so that's that's your shortage like so yeah and even as a percentile because even if we manage to get like 10 of the people who have a wallet into gaming that's four million or five million people i mean you know and that's not a big number right and i'm going to guess that many of them already play some games or another uh like yourself so so you have an awareness of it you may not necessarily be playing it but you know if i come to you and say hey there's a game on in sort of in that incorporates these elements of defying crypto for instance you might go interesting right like for you at least you'll make that match and i don't think you are you might necessarily even a small minority you might actually be much bigger as a number since we're all quite visual yeah i think so and i think something that's kind of interesting here so um i was just gonna say so um i think that's an interesting approach where you you kind of convert those people that are already in crypto into gaming so you're tackling that you're introducing that and i think that's something that's easy to do with gaming especially if the game is easy to understand i think that's the power of candy crush i think it was very underestimated that it targeted uh um it was very palatable palatable for everyone so whether you're a six-year-old granny trying to play that or you're like a 15 year old kid trying to play it at the start the swiping was very addictive right i think we shouldn't forget that and it's like the game had a lot of very positive rewards that made it pick up so being able to get a game into the crypto crowd and something we know about the crypto crowd is obviously that people are ridiculously rich so we just have a few comments um up there we're just like oh um the blue wifey made a made a nft for himself and then sold it for 15 eve right like we're selling stuff for eve as if it's dollars at this current point where people have you know so much eve they just spend oh yeah it's just 10 eve right there just like throw it that down it's like spare pocket change for me and i think that's also um true and i think that's that's um that's a growing market surprisingly and i think that's something that's new and starting out and i think it's it's good just maybe quickly to interject there because you know if you think about how did the art market develop right like in the renaissance for instance it was the patrons you know the medicis the rich guys who said i wanted to you know get michelangelo to basically draw this amazing thing right and actually because they had so much money because they were essentially the whales of their time right they ended up basically sponsoring the arts for their own personal pleasure and it created an artistic boom that was the renaissance where people were sponsored to do this and then created a new innovation industry because the players got in because of the money so that's what we have today right people got rich because they maybe bet it on bet on eith or bitcoin or whatever currencies early on and now they're sitting on this and they believe in the long term and you know they've got disposable income and they they get pleasure from that you know i mean why do people drink wine honestly i mean it's like you know it may taste good but is it really worth as much as that they're paying for right it's great right i mean it's so so so that's that's that's that's the thing right it's you need the wealthy patrons in every ecosystem to grow in a culture and innovation and that's what this is what nfts is a form of culture where the blue kirby is worth 15 eath or not don't know but the person who sold it is like wait this is great i should make more right and it inspires other people to say maybe i should do that too and there you go i think so i think that's very interesting and we thought we got someone bring up meme as well i think meme was a prime example of like one of the biggest nft hypes like it shot up in value because people were surprisingly buying just gifs of like animated gifs of like pineapples or something like that i i saw the art i like the art okay i appreciate the art i'm not the biggest art critic you guys probably know that you know like i'm not an artist myself um it's very clear um i want to appreciate it but i don't want to appreciate it with my eve you know that's that's that's the difference but everyone is different and i think there is a class of patrons out there you know thank thank you thank you arigato ganzaimasta you know thank you for for for for sponsoring this art making this art world a bit bigger but yeah i think i think it's it's something to wrap your head around and i think it's like right now there's a lot of hype so i feel like there's um a potential lot of greed play as well people think they can flip this but who knows right the problem with something like this where you uh want to do a quick flip is that you might end up um it's a greater fool theory right you you want to sell it to someone else that will will pay more for it and think that they can sell it off for someone else until i tell at the end of the day they can't sell it off and this entire market just crashes right so it's a the the epicenter of the greater fool theory so um but you know i mean i think on that part is that the while you while there is an element of that which would feel unhealthy you do need that to grow the market right i mean if it wasn't for the dot-com boom you probably would have you know many more years later where the internet at least in beginnings of the internet will be built the way that it did um and you know if it wasn't for you know the um ico craze in 2017 early 2018 then many of the products that you're seeing today in blockchain wouldn't have been funded the way that it did um so so it's true of course right there's a lot of rubbish out there and one needs to be discerning on the other hand it is the money that has gone to these valid projects that are basically pushing the industry for it that's been true for i think you know for for any for any industry as it as it goes through that period i mean video games went through that as well i mean the first boom of atari you know before before the whole et thing right it's the same thing you know gaming gaming has gone through those cycles time and time again as well where sort of the boom bust but every time it comes out of the bust actually it ends up being a little bigger and a little smarter so i think that's um that's that's important here yeah cool i think so i think so i think i think that's a good way to put it i mean whether or not i want to be involved that's my personal opinion and i think there's a lot of discussion here and i think this is one of the most productive discussions i think a lot of people are commenting on a live chat too this is actually cool and i think i really appreciate this yeah because like something that i went pretty hard on you on is i i've always played the devil's advocate right oh i like that i'm very i love it i love this devil's advocate um you know sometimes i i go and you know push push up a few buttons where i think it's good and and there was a discussion earlier about gods unchained as well i think that was one of the biggest failures in the crypto space too where it was a clear example when it's one of my biggest pet peeves where i'm like they pitched me this project and it was just clear that it wouldn't work from day one it was like it was trading card game but blizzard made it non-trading for a reason and then they said oh let's just copy blizzard and then made it a trading card game and then voila your monetization is completely dead right you just killed any ability for you to promote and advertise a game and then they ended up having like what 10 daily active users instead of 10 million daily active users because they didn't have any advertising money left after that so it was a clear example of just like just dumbasses trying to to to farm a um an idea and to to so i mean i'm not pretty negative on that but what's your opinion okay i i think one thing that you know if you look at gods and chain i think they did build out this initial community and you know we while we understand that all projects need to have work they they they were one of the pioneers in the space right and to push forward the narrative and uh you know they did raise a good good bunch of money so they're not down and out but i would say more importantly the lessons they had right i think it's the lessons they had also helped us and the other industry people to say it was clear these lessons should not have been at least this experiment like the the biggest the beauty of game design is we can learn from mistakes and this was a clear example where blizzard chose not to do something like yes they definitely played magic the gallery they definitely realized that it's a trading card game right and then made a very conscious decision to create a game that that has no trading like this was a conscious decision and i think this was a lesson that we didn't need to spend money learning right well i think but it goes back to it goes back to the thing of sort of you think about what was the foundation of the team initially right and then the foundation of the team initially were not people that came from the gaming industry right um so so it's gonna punch them in the face and you know like you know learn gaming dumbass like well at least watch a blizzard talk okay because so they they're pretty transparent on everything like they they tell you but i think i can't justify that way they didn't have the experience but i feel like like they're a little bit too lazy i think there was two ways for them to approach it right they they copied the game and said we're going to bring trading to it but the problem is the game already exists all right so they need to be 10 times better or have a novel kind of mechanism there to entice people to come over and trading just isn't enough because trading kills your monetization and your your ability to advertise your game and i think that was a very clear example where this business strategy you can spot the mistake from a model away and i don't think we should have even spent time or effort trying to learn this lesson when this is a clear like you know from square one i think like why waste investors money on this yeah i think one of the things that uh that you know one can sort of expect like what we're experiencing with sandbox for instance is that you know we don't spend a lot of money on advertising on sandbox but because you have people who have invested interest in it now they become your marketeers right because the community has a stake in its success right and you could say the same could have been true and might still be true for gods and chains because they have a stake in its success too the only thing is the designing of that how does it how does the design loop create that from a game that has an economic and value principle that they want right and i think when we think about games on blockchain because it's value we always have to ask the question as to what makes this experience valuable or what makes this experience meaningful for the player right which is why we introduced so the the sort of staking slash rental model in in formula one delta time which is probably the only nft that you can stake for a token right which is essentially a leasing model and it's supposed to be a way to create that narrative for for people who are in crypto to understand the gaming potential as well right do you want to talk a little bit about what um delta time is because i think that my audience i'm pretty sure not sure i'm not sure if everyone's following up on this okay do you want to just give a little basic intro of what um yeah of course and what you guys are trying to build so i mean everyone delta time you see the track in the back but you've got some cool racing cars uh is the official formula one um and with the rev token as well we have motor gp as well uh sort of a blockchain game and you know it's not just using the official titles in itself the rev token is actually going to be is a token for all motorsports related digital uh digital entertainment uh with formula one and mobile gp as a start and what we decided to do was to sort of mirror a racing and simulation type game that would they have real economic values behind them and we decided to work with formula one because most formula one people tend to have a lot of money and understand money right so that's so it's an easier easier match from a from a broader adoption um the design in itself other than racing and creating parts is based on sort of a collectible element as well so collection and trading is a key part of that loop to your earlier point you know maybe that is the game well for f1 delta time that was a big part of it right and one one way that we initiated to sort of scarcity where we don't issue like millions of cards which maybe many of these other games had some trouble because you know because they were running out of money maybe they started selling more of these entities instead of becoming inflationary we set these limits so for instance when we sold the crates we have a we gave it a limited period of time you know i think it was less than two weeks to buy these crates of different categories and then what happened was is that when people would buy the crates uh any crate that wasn't sold after that cutoff date basically would get burned right so essentially the community gets to decide you know what is the scarcity for that edition that goes out there and what was interesting is is that people started buying certain categories trading them around um and and really the volume the market became self-sustainable because the community got to decide what it could stomach right which is an issue with many other games including crypto games if they just flood the market out there then they have no value and other people will not value them as well um and with sand with land as you said when we sell land it sells out after 10 or 20 minutes but we also make sure that we don't flood the market with that so that's the economic aspect now from a design standpoint you can win right and you can you can you can sort of win them you can spend rev to buy these assets but you can also win with that so you have a time trial which is essentially like a management simulation element you have actually today we'll have a gameplay video coming out in the afternoon showing the actual racing uh sort of uh sort of um trial racing games which was which looks pretty cool you can the screen in the back is an indication of that where you can race for skill and you can play against other people uh and win some rev but then we have the other element where you can essentially stake your car and the para the parallel for sticking your car is actually you're renting the car to another player uh so he can earn from using the car and once you stake the car you can no longer sell it right and you can no longer you can you can no longer erase it or time trial it but you can start earning passive income it goes back into the pool that other people can then rent to use to win in the racing pool so it's a nice little loop where you know you have the token that's in circulation and the usage is out there and you can effectively we've created kind of a solution to sort of nft double spend you have an nft and you have to choose which way to use it um and what's fascinating now is that you know because the crates themselves are years and 20s people ended up buying these crates and you know we have probably like hundreds of crates in the marketplace right now where people are sort of just waiting on them for other people to open because they they because it has value because we're no longer issuing any more 2019 cars even ourselves we had to buy cars from the market as prizes and and what's happened is is that you'll see when you go on like open c you'll see you know a car that you know the epic cars which used to go for about one each they're now averaging three right um because not just because of the staking potential but because there's not that many out left out there but the value principle is how do we maintain protect and create value for the players which in a normal game to your point like hearthstone for instance is not the case right this it's not about you know um maintaining value right and there's a few companies out there that think about this right we think about this sandbox obviously thinks about this axia infinity thinks about this right so the com the companies that do well in the crypto gaming world are the ones who really think about value in games whereas the ones who think of it more as a gimmick or as a add-on it's not going to do well because to your point they haven't designed value into the base economics of the gameplay yeah i think that's that's quite key here um and this is one the when we saw the first iteration of video games they just copied the economic model they copied the the whole inflationary model and said okay let's make it with nfts but obviously the entities will just dive in value and we saw that with quite a few games too so whether it's garden change demon monsters even crypto kitties there was a constant flux of new kitties being created so your old kitties got less and less valuable so having value designed early in the game i think is one of the core things i think this is my biggest pet peeve it has to be designed from a game um from a core perspective of value retention and you have to have designers thinking around that so then this gives a reason for items to be valuable and to be tradable and for this whole economy to work so i think that's kind of interesting so you guys have a racing game and the cars that are in this game they're limited in supply so so do you have a situation where let's say if you have a sudden influx of people coming into this game they all want cars okay but now the car supply is limited how do you deal with that then well then you so you can maybe not buy the car but you you can rent the car right right through the staking approach what happens is that uh you rent the car back into the pool right and then we can rent the cars out so we would make income from the use of the car um but the and the owner of the car would get obviously his rental related income from that uh and uh and they can still play the game and they can still win or participate or have fun right they just don't own the car which is by the way the real world right for gaming for most games you don't know anything then you go to this example of hertz right you go to hertz in europe and all the cars are out you know they're doing a rental company they have a limited amount of cars okay they're out of cars sorry you know how do you deal with that that's where it comes in i want to race oh sorry hurts so hurts are like yo hey sorry you don't have cars for you fuck off well i'm sorry rental prices go up i mean that's and and maybe so what happens is that for the 2019 edition that's it right it's like we can't make more um but for 2020 right which is a different set and a different set of races you can do that right but again the community of players get to buy that right and they get the 2020 set is still inflationary then are you saying okay now we can issue new cars they're just in a different package right there's a 2020 set now no because you can't race in the same environment oh okay okay okay so that's a limitation so i guess because because now but the but the part where i think it becomes really uh interesting is can these cars have utility outside of our games that's what i want to do right because i see nfts like free trade right not just fungibility of the token but in this case non-fungibles that can travel to other game environments so they've already had a few cases where people were offering the crates or the cars as components in another game so i can take my game into another world right and would that utility be interesting and in fact i think that success for the owners of the car would be that if the car can be used in 10 different worlds or 20 different worlds right yeah i i think that's the other thing right the multiverse idea where now because it's decentralized um you can use it in other games and i think that's a whole new discussion for another time i feel like that's that that is way more complicated because why if i can if i'm a game developer i'm making it why should i let you have the monetization or mon bring items into my game right like from a game design perspective money needs to exchange hands otherwise i need to hire artists to draw a version of your car in my game to fit my artistic style that incurs costs and why would i want to do that for free i mean essentially if you let someone else's car come over here it kills my monetization right so i feel like that's yes i mean there's a big discussion there i i feel to me just broadly i feel that allowing that interoperability and trading of these assets into other worlds is what's limiting to the game industry just briefly put i think our game industry even though it's 150 billion dollars it's bigger than sort of you know uh it's huge right however it's still limited because just think about something like league of legends right it's the nba it's the sport of basketball and it's espn all in one okay so which which which is actually crazy if you think about it right i mean imagine if this were true today for you know i don't know nba where they were everything all in one and in fact they were you know if i wanted to buy and use shoes inside nba i have to buy nba shoes i can't use nike or puma or adidas it's a the market shrinks right it's a much smaller market it may seem big today but what happens if you open it up and create a real open economy you know it it will be bigger and our our assumption is that by doing so it's not going to be just you know 10 bigger but it's going to be bigger by the order of like factors so it turns 150 billion dollar industry into a multi-trillion dollar industry because you have so many more participants and so much more creativity we can't have a nike of games we can't have an adidas or puma of games because that system doesn't exist because you cannot move objects around when you have that we'll have a new sort of economic revolution sort of uh because of that that's what we believe that's pretty cool man that's that's actually a very very interesting idea and i think um i think that's that's definitely a conversation for another time i think i'm expanding that ecosystem and i think that's very visionary in a way as well i think it's like thinking beyond how the current market forces work i think and i think this is the balance right um there are so many lessons from the current economic system and that's why i was like very adamant about gods on chain having screwed up the monetization from the get-go because their game was just too similar to to hearthstone and at the same time they cut down hearthstone monetization but what i think your angle that you're looking at is building a new economy on top of that and being able to kind of have like like rethink the structure of things and i think that's where we are at now for the whole nft space like how do we do it how do we achieve this realistically where everyone wins not just say like one company wins because they're selling a lot of shoes but how does that the the basketball court company when you know the guys providing the the game for these shoes and for for the sports to be played absolutely how does this whole ego whole ecosystem work so i think that's a really good discussion i definitely want to say um guys check out rev check out sandbox you know check out all the stuff check out the nft space i hope you guys got a lot of information about nfts um here and i definitely want to thank you for coming in as well do you want to have any ending notes on on what you want to talk about like what you are building as well in your future i think you talked about rev already do um are there anything exciting coming for rev well for for rev i mean you know we just announced the acquisition of ninja stickers so and we also recently so which basically puts in moto 2 moto 3 and and other assets in there um and obviously we're building that out the other thing is we also recently announced the partnership with flow which is basically the dapper labs the cryptic these guys uh between sort of rev and flow so we're working closely around that as well um and moto gp some of the gameplay will be on flow but but there'll be essentially a relationship between these these these uh two emerging ecosystems uh and there's a lot more coming so you know if you go visit our telegram channel or if you go basically check out rev uh you know rev motorsports.com you know um and sign up we'll keep you informed on all of our developments um awesome thank you for having me yeah no problem thank you for that great discussion i played the devil's advocate i hope that was very interesting for you guys learning about the nft space and definitely have a good discussion on this thank you guys so much for watching here this is uh one of the most interesting live streams that i've ever done just having someone live come in and have a discussion i hope you guys enjoyed it i know there was like a few things with volume being inconsistent i try my best but you know this can be fixed in post but it's very hard to fix when during live so thank you guys so much for watching today um and you know hope you guys have a great time i'll see you guys very soon thank you bye bye bye and let me