Ethereum 2.0 and the DeFi Bull Run w/ Hashoshi

so hey guys welcome to a special episode today we have a really great talk with one of my good friends forest from hash toshi so i guess we're broadcasting this on both our channels and let's do a little intro so forest can you introduce a little bit about yourself or what you know how you got into this whole crypto thing yeah absolutely and first of all thanks for having me on the channel um but yeah my story that you know about how i got into crypto really started about 10 years ago i was on stumble upon clicking through just looking for something to read and i found the bitcoin white paper by happenstance fell in love with the concept and and the whole the ethos of it and then you know the rest was history and when ethereum came out kept up with that and i come from a tech background so i started you know building with ethereum you know goofy stuff early on but then it's turned into you know something pretty beautiful now so i'm really really lucky to be a part of this space nice and i think that's that's a perfect example of someone doing something good i mean like i know i i brought some upon i didn't stumble upon bitcoin sadly uh my story is a little bit similar but i was more looking for how to make money back in 2012. so i was a very big gamer and i was like okay look how do i make make make money with these gaming pcs i actually had three gaming pcs and uh i was actually mining diablo so like you know just uh diablo 3 is a very big game i was actually using them to like literally use bots to mine that game right it's kind of weird but anyways um there was a down time i've discovered bitcoin i was mining bitcoin and bitcoin that time at that time was mineable by a normal pc and uh to a point where i was getting like bitcoin was that ten dollars at this time by the way so i was getting 0.3 bitcoin per day so that sounds like something ridiculous now but yeah not that time was three dollars a day so it's not that well three that throws every other day so still you know it's not that much um my biggest regret at that time was that i didn't keep it so i was like okay look i'm a miner i should just sell it and i didn't really yeah look look at the vision too much right i was just like i was cut and dry i'm like okay this thing moved from ten dollars to fifteen dollars just sell it all and then i was in regret for a long time um and then i started this channel so like i was in a regret for like four years i started this channel roughly around 2016 right before that major bull run so i was just just sharing my ideas and then that was when i as a community as the whole box mining community we kind of discovered why this is important and then it started becoming you know something that's like this whole community helping each other discover everything out there explaining some things and then going on so i guess that's kind of the spirit i think we come from two different angles like i mean i'm not a tech background but i'm learning more tech so i guess you're a tech background and you're like discovering the beauty of this whole system so i guess that's kind of fun right yeah it's wild and i mean you know i my my story of starting my channel is very similar but i didn't have the guts to start a channel and talk about this stuff until i i saw more people interested so like in 2017 i'm like wow people actually care about this you know because i've been made fun of so much by like my friends they're like what is this what is this bitcoin thing like just shut up about it you know and so eventually it's like you know what i'm gonna start a channel i'm gonna do this and it'll at least i can you know explain topics to people and all that sort of thing but wild world man nice and i mean coming to this day right so now we're kind of re-entering we hear the bulls rumbling again what's your kind of take on this current market you know uh do you feel relieved if you're happy do you feel scared what's your take i would say like cautiously optimistic the in my mind i think a lot of it is is because in the the two years plus since the last big you know bull run cycle there's been a lot of growth you know i think it's hard to see when you look at every day as an isolated day but if you look across the last two years there's been a lot of growth in the space in terms of the product offering in terms of the maturity of the user experience a lot of things have have really come to fruition and a lot of projects have started to deliver on white papers that were just ideas in 2017 and so i think that that's partially what's driving it and that's good then i also think there's the normal you know there's the normal hype where people don't really get what they're doing or get what they're investing in and that's driving you know some of the defy stuff it sounds cool but if you really think about it below the surface level you're like i don't know about that i'm not sure if that's gonna fly you know exactly and i think similar to you too and i think i totally agree with you i mean back in 2017 and even before that 2016 i think i was talking to some friends and you know i'm like oh i just bought three gpus you know amd rx4 480s at that time and i got those cheap you know and i'm gonna start mining ethereum and then they're like have fun and that sucks you're like you're enjoying nerd and one of them actually even bet against it he's like you're gonna lose money i'm gonna bet you a hundred bucks you're gonna lose money on that right yeah and then boy did i prove that wrong right like it's like at that time it was fighting against all these people who were like this is a scam this is going to zero you know they they didn't believe it so right now i think there's a there's a change now i think i think at least for me right at least for me after suddenly i started starting understanding maybe i'm surrounding myself with different friends but suddenly when i talk to bitcoin to my friends they're like oh tell me a little bit more you know they're a lot more receptive to it and then i think if you have a good pitch as well if you're like you know telling them look you know look at these bank accounts right now that's happening you know it'd be this trade war between us and china and how us is actually closing chinese people's bank accounts and then like chinese are also closing american bank accounts you know they're suddenly realizing okay okay there might be some value here oh there might be some value here like having this decentralized having actual sovereignty over your capital these are all concepts i think like people are starting to slowly understand now and i feel like this is what is going to propel that next wave right when people suddenly start realizing okay this finance system is not what we think it is yeah and i think this is the this is going to be the click for most people so i'm pretty excited for that but obviously i totally i totally agree with you right now like a little bit of the whole d5 stuff it's a little bit too crazy and i i was very direct with people like with all the meme coins you know we got we were just talking about yams right before this episode started but yams we got pork chop pork chop today yeah okay yeah it's like every food every food possible let's just go through the emoji list and just you know chop it up let's do it do it dude i know what i did that's what i did i just went to the fruit emoji list and i just typed every single character and then put that finance and i just see yeah captures or not and if they're not purchased i'm just gonna buy it 10 bucks why not no i got i got i got some good ones if anyone wants to buy them i got spam dot finance you know spam is great right everyone loves spam we got uh what was it we got sleep dot finance you know we need some sleep why not why not yeah anyways this is this is the whole situation right now um kind of face probably myself but you know but um i think one thing that we actually wanted to discuss like beyond this insanity and all this good stuff i think as a programmer i think one of the topics we chose to discuss very early on was ethereum 2.0 i mean we're close to that launch right now what's your kind of take on this whole thing yeah and it's a great question and i think it's a topic that so many people are like are buzzing about right now and to be honest with you i think there are a couple things one recently there was you know there's this medalla testnet going on and that is i guess the release candidate for this beacon chain the proof of stake and basically the the base layer for ethereum 2.0 and there was an issue with the testnet that came from usage of a centralized system a cloud flare like time timekeeping mechanism and so that caused syncing issues and all sorts of stuff and the the testnet basically crashed more or less there was like five percent or something of the network still in sync or still working right and so people were like panicking like oh my god like this you know ethereum 2.0 is not going to work in reality it's a minor issue but obviously something that needs to be fixed but i think little things like that really hurt people's you know i guess opinions about ethereum 2.0 and every little problem is going to get blown up because of how congested ethereum 1.0 is right now and it's because everyone is like desperate for this to come out but the reality is we're probably close to two years away from ethereum 2.0 in a form that can like hold something like a uniswap right like it's not going to be august you know the end of august or september and then you know uniswap can port to eth 2.0 like it's going to take a lot of time so i think people just need to realize that and set expectations as as you know according so i definitely think ethereum took off i mean right now gas prices are literally 120 kui and just before starting this video i had to send like five transactions off like i had to swap some coins and then i have to stake those coins and then i have to unstake something and i just had to do five transactions and that literally cost me 100 bucks and i was just like okay i have to bite the bullet for this one so it's getting very expensive to interact i mean technically these interactions should a be fast and nearly free right and i think a lot of people are like squealing right now and i mean obviously um money is being made so people are still willing so i'm still willing to pay these costs but you know i'm just feeling like it shouldn't happen so i feel like people are impatient for it but at the same time i kind of realize you know with all this like um prior to this i'm also in the gaming industry and i know that my experience of working with programmers is you double the time required that they say they will take right they say it'll take three weeks to finish this you just double that that's just uh as a as a program like as a project manager you just you just know right something's gonna screw up it goes it's like something's gonna screw up you don't build like you don't build bugs into your timeline like it's like this is my my happy path like if everything goes perfectly it'll take me three weeks but nothing goes perfectly ever you know and i'm guilty of the same thing all that you know all the time but like exactly it's wild you know the problem is i think is that ethereum 2.0 is to date the most difficult protocol project that will have ever been completed in crypto and i think that's the thing that's missing here is that you know and i will say vitalik i think didn't even realize how big this was and i think recently he admitted that on that podcast where the you know samson and him were arguing about which is better which is just so stupid to me anyways but the biggest waste of time ever but yeah yeah it's like what are you doing but um anyways i i think he even said like this was way harder than we had ever imagined and i think that there have been several times where they went down a path for proof of stake or what have you and then realized it didn't work and they scrapped it and went all the way back and started from scratch multiple times because to create a protocol that's backwards compatible with everything that exists today because there's such a rich ecosystem of adapts but is also better in every other way that's really just like really hard architecturally to do exactly and i think this is like being like uh called almost like changing the the engine of a moving airplane right your passengers are already sitting on the airplane they're already like 400 meters or whatever above sea level you know you want this plane to be as safe as possible but at the same time you know that with your current engine you're not going to last very long so you got to change it so it's like yeah it's a huge monumental piece and even like i think a lot of people don't realize this but this this deployment of ethereum 2.0 this first deployment that we're having right now so medela after this it's not really going to be able to launch smart contract it's just a beacon chain right it's just like that it's just right and then afterwards you have the sharding mechanism then you have to test if these shards work and then you have to transfer coins from this current um ethereum i guess 1.0 to ethereum 2.0 and it's just like that's hard yeah that's that's ridiculous so we'll hope it we'll hope you see it goes well i mean like i i personally look at the the project plan i'm like okay you know what i'm just gonna take the first phase and like then they're probably gonna change it after first phase launch it so i'm not even gonna research after that right i just i just talk about this first phase i think um i actually kind of like it like i actually really like what they're doing because in terms of ethereum 2.0 there's multiple people developing for it i think that's cool i think a lot of people don't realize that with this testnet is that there are multiple labs you know be it lighthouse or be in prismatic labs etc they're all developing their own clients for it which is great that means like um it's actually decentralized in terms of developers developers right and also you you can you allow a lot of participants a lot of chains they sacrifice speed so they have high speed but low participants right but here with ethereum 2.0 you're having anyone with 32 eve can stake it and all of a sudden you can have so many different participants i'm participating in this like testnet and i think like yeah i think it's great you know you're saying it's fantastic yeah i have you to participate but have you participated yeah yeah i have uh this this particular test that i was even you know more excited to to like play around with because i was very interested to see what the metrics would be for the network in terms of participation like you said um because this is the closest thing to like a public dry run of what the actual mainnet would look like when it comes to fruition and so uh i wanted to see how much you know dummy ether was going to get you know locked up i wanted to see how many different entities would be participating and so i was pleasantly surprised about about that but i think that that's why ethereum has an advantage in that regard because when they come up with a solution they were able to make an assumption that there would be some base level of participation to make the network secure from day one that i think other networks just don't have because they don't have that community yet ethereum already does have the community and so they can say we can assume that x number of nodes are going to be there day one and that this amount of ether is going to be staked day one and that's why all these test nets are helpful for them to you know figure out what that looks like exactly and i think the value of the community is very important i think a lot of people you know at this current point of time there's so much talk about blockchain 3.0 blockchain 4.0 i mean you know throw a lot of marketing jargon out there there's so many high performance blockchains out there but at the same time no one's moving to that so it goes to show that the community is vital uh not just a developer community but also a rich whale community i think um that's also something very powerful in eve that we should not neglect a lot of people are looking at these whales be like yo uh we want some of your money we're just gonna let's get in on that exactly so i think there hasn't been a big platform that's that's rivaled that i mean try and try to buy as much devs as possible but i think their community isn't just isn't just isn't as strong we've seen a few i i do think that like hopefully we have multiple ecosystems i actually feel like that's actually good for the whole ecosystem i think like um something that really changed my mind recently was um i had this interview with cz and he was like oh it's not just about one person winning everyone else and beating everyone else it's about converting the entire world right we got to work together here and i think that hopefully we can cooperate and work together here and i feel like um that's a much much stronger narrative than the whole you know ethereum is going to beat everyone or you know bitcoin is going to be everyone that's yeah nonsense i agree with you and i think the reality is is that the way that these projects are structured and the way that things are starting to move like early on i think there will be a shakeout where some won't make it that's just the reality but there will be others that fall into a sort of niche that makes sense for them right that that you the users are gonna like that the devs can really focus in on and i'm sure that because a lot of these are decentralized communities it'll sort of just evolve that way over time and they'll get rid of features that don't matter for that use case that they're looking for and that and just double down on on a specific use case so instead of having this like one protocol that just does everything you're going to have sort of niche down protocols that do a couple things really well and then connect to each other via some interoperability protocol which i'm very passionate about by the way yeah so once you take on this whole i mean there's two sides to interoperability so ethereum they're bridging a lot of projects on to ethereum we got we saw ren the red bridge and etc and there's also other projects talking about interoperability i mean i think that's the whole kind of sales pitch of polka dot right now what's your take on this right now i think that there's some value to it you know polka dot cosmos they've built relatively complex protocols around this concept and basically it allows you to spin up uh to spin up your own you know blockchain protocol that is compatible with others since you can cross you know do cross chain swaps of assets and you can delegate security and trust to this layer that is you know polka dot or cosmos i think it's a really smart move because the there are a lot of protocols that are going to build out products that people want to use but they're not really natively onboarded onto that particular network and they're going to want to be able to trust that a transaction they make over there is still valid over here where they are and there might even be regional like regional networks like um you know there might be an instance where ethereum is used in the united states more than it is anywhere else and then there's another blockchain protocol used in southeast asia right then that needs then they need to talk to each other yeah that might be how it turns out i think so i think like i think interoperability is important i'm not sure if we need another token to facilitate that interoperability you know i'm sure on that i think like um i definitely think that we're creating too many tokens here but i think throughout the years i've learned that it's impossible to stop the river from flowing my analogy here is i feel like a lot of maximals are like oh stop creating more tokens stop but you're like you know like you cannot stop this river from flowing i think you just have to understand that people would like to speculate on tokens i think it's a it's a built in human you know weakness or flaw or we just want to get money fast right so i think like these few years i'm like you know what maybe just some token use cases just be careful you know someone will work some will not maybe some projects might even work without a token right but a lot of these tokens they don't have a very high market cap they're not very distributed with a lot of people so you have to be careful so i agree with the maximalist argument there but at the same time i feel like maximalists they just stuck their head in the sand and just called everything a scam which is also like the stupidest thing you can ever do right now i think there's so much innovation in this space it's crazy and i'm going to rant a little bit here but like even in the space of defense defy right so defy completely changed how centralized exchanges behave right now so maybe like four months ago you'll ask like x exchange you know how i want to ask my coin how much it costs and they'll give you like a you know a seven figure number right like uh don't don't hold this ridiculous number and then you'll have to like yeah bargain back and forth and now it's a complete reverse now it's like okay any d5 project knows they can just list in uniswap get very high liquidity allow everyone to have access to this and that the c5 is like centralized exchanges like oh like we'll list you for free we'll pay you okay come on here like bring bring your users here because because we're dying here so like i feel like all of a sudden there's that power shift right so i think you know if you ask me about d5 i think that's the biggest power shift that we've already seen all of a sudden you know we they essentially can force um centralized exchanges to have cheaper listing which is good but the other biggest revolution here i think is with automated market making because market making firms used to have a whole like they have a the whole sales pitch you know give me some coins give me some money and it will help maybe help you market maker coin and then you can't even prove that now with automated market making not only can you provide liquidity but you can outsource that liquidity right you get p project saying oh look just dump into that liquidity pool all of a sudden you know you have much higher liquidity that just changed the landscape that changed it just kind of completely changed the landscape so i feel like that's the power of it obviously you know we're still operating by smart contracts it might not be safe but i feel like you know that's a huge innovation i don't see how people can ignore that that just completely changed how coins are listed coins have done it and that's crazy i think that's that's awesome yeah i mean the level of access is is next level i mean back in the i guess in the early days like it was very direct like if you needed if you wanted to get a new like a new erc20 like you had to go directly to the erc20 contract that this team had built and if you really had if you didn't have the acumen you're just like i hope this is right you know i hope this is going to work properly um whereas with with uniswap you have a little bit more um a little more structure in place and at least you have an interface to work from and you can sort of you know quickly access these liquidity pools i guess you could call them in the split second you know it's super it's super easy it's super easy i mean now that the the biggest problem is now it needs to be fast now you have to deal with problems of front running and there's still there's still a lot of issues here but i feel like yeah you know this this gives you the proof of concept of something pretty insane and the fact is the matter of fact is that anyone can write something like this right like now it's just up to your imagination to write something pretty crazy and being like boom we can pop this out and i mean we saw that with like a few projects that popped up i mean i saw bounce like it just overnight it became a sensation where now projects are listing on bounce uh i saw i think a uniswap balancer came up very quickly now we're all rediscovering some fedex it's like it's like the new thing since sliced bread again it was a new thing since rice bread and then for the second time right okay and then all of a sudden this weekend we have wrapped bitcoin becoming popular synthetics bitcoin becoming popular we have uh ran ran bitcoin becoming popular now we start feeling that oh maybe we can have like bitcoin on ethereum i remember the bitcoin maximus dissing this like when matt when wrapped be theorem first came out like all the maximum was like oh you can see now you see now you ethereum kids no one wants bitcoin on your freaking chain you know bitcoin needs to be on bitcoin only and then all of a sudden now we have millions of dollars of bitcoin being locked on ethereum so yeah i mean in that that's the funny thing is it's like the look bitcoin was my first entry point to the space it's full disclosure my largest allocation in terms of my net worth i have every vested interest in bitcoin being successful and living up to all the expectations people have that being said i think it's closed-minded and deluded to think that bitcoin is just it like that that's the pinnacle of technology forever like are you joking like that's that just it doesn't work that way and when you compare like we talked about this before a little bit even before that we got on this call but like comparing ethereum to bitcoin is like like trying to figure out how good an apple is at being an egg like they're not even close to the same and like once you get past the point where it's like they're both food or they're both blockchains you're done like that's that's that's it exactly exactly and i think yeah i think people are confused i mean because i guess early on when you come into crypto you know you're you don't have a they're all crypto to you right what's this bitcoin what's this bitcoin cash what's this ethereum what's ethereum classic you know you're all confused so you're trying to make that decision and that's what i guess when those arguments matter but the moment you kind of you're in this space for like a month or two and you start feeling the different kind of mentalities and you can start to understand what each project can do because bitcoin and ethereum are completely exactly like what you said is an apple and an egg right one's a one's a fruit one's a protein okay they're not even the same thing right yeah and you know you need both right like to live and and i think maybe so maybe maybe that's the case maybe not but at the same time they're not comparable whatsoever um and i think the longer people waste having that debate the more time we're gonna waste you know stopping us from moving forward i think that's that's my argument i guess yeah i'm totally with you there and you know there are things you distinctly cannot do on on bitcoin that you can do on ethereum and that due to the way bitcoin is governed and it's the right way of doing it that stuff will never happen on bitcoin in any real actionable way not in the same way at least no no um and and vice versa like if i measure bitcoin by ethereum standards it will never live up and vice versa so there's just there's no point in doing so both have merit in my mind exactly i think so too so now other than this okay so like let's finish that debate i think we wrapped it up really quickly bitcoin theorem two different things let's let's not even compare them okay then now now what's your next step right so i'm actually very interested because i mean you you make really amazing videos tech describer and you know something that's really crazy so prior to this um discussion like he this guy maintains a full-time job i'm like how how man like and sometimes i don't know either that's crazy so so are you working from home now like what are you trying to do in your full-time job yeah yeah i'm i'm home now i've actually been home most of the year actually it's like most of the most of the work was already shifting to remote anyways um you know because you have teleconferencing and all this other stuff and you can you can sit face to face but um yeah for me right now one of the big things that i'm working on is trying to from coming from the lens of having built things with ethereum and also built applications with traditional tech that sort of are meant to interact with ethereum right like no js you know express like classic mean mernstack applications um trying to look at other platforms and protocols that have come um since the advent of ethereum and trying to compare and figure out where those projects fit in terms of use case right so like looking at the toolkit that you get when you look at elrond like how what applicability is there for that um looking at projects like uh like zilliqa a bunch of different protocols out there that have capabilities to build out smart contracts and to build applications with and seeing how they fit and where they would maybe be better fits than ethereum in certain cases that's my big area of study now just to help to help enterprise really you know enterprises are are trying to allocate capital to not get left behind and so the more that you can help give them an idea of where to start and then build them stuff to to amplify that money that they're spending is smart in my mind that's that's interesting okay so so after looking that i mean i've you said mentioned outruns look have you looked at token look at like vechain for the enterprise stuff uh yeah and then algorand as well like what's your take like do do companies rather prefer what do they prefer from what your experience is like i think there's two sides of the the coin unintended you have the folks who are very preferenced that are saying like we it usually it's based on country right if you're you know if you're based in asia they'll be like we we want to use something like vechain or we want to use tron we want to use something like that and then in the us they're like no projects except for things that started in the us canada is kind of like us or canada will will take a protocol from either one um and so that i find interesting is that it's very like geography focused yeah it's very tribal that feels like it's geographical tribal a little bit yeah and that's kind of the reason why i've been doing the research that i've been doing lately is so that i can put on paper i don't even mention origin like where the thing came from it's like decide based on what's best for your use case and what is going to make you the most value and clear the easiest path to what i think is important being on a public net right because a lot of these enterprises they want to be they want to do private networks first i totally get that and i actually think it's smart to experiment private first but your path should always be how can we get to the public network and to to get reap the rewards of that security benefit the finality and other things that you get from being on a distributed network um so yeah i mean from that perspective there are also a lot of people who are very open-minded and you say i think this is the best protocol for you let's let's do it and they're like sounds good you're the you know you know your thing so it's one of the one or the other yeah i guess it really depends on who you talk to and where they are and i think there's a big confusion here and i think this is where the whole crypto space doesn't make it easy because yet again our whole space is very tribal right like you mentioned something and all of a sudden it's like oh why don't you mention that why don't you mention this and i think like that's that's so weird but it's because i guess because people is invested into a particular project you just want to see it to a success but i think yeah for forgetting actual enterprise adoption i think this yeah removing the the political element i think that's important because after all these blockchains are public i mean they're supposed to be owned by a community right and then choosing what's best for them is hard and i think what else well i i'm pretty optimistic for that i'm pretty optimistic that there is actually a very strong need for it to prove you know like you said finality and etc it depends on each individual use case but i feel like there's a lot of problems solving we better start solving them quickly yeah and the interesting thing too is like the like the political aspect that you mentioned is derivative of governments not people right like it's it's derivative of that that level of like mistrust at like the highest levels like me sitting here right now i would not sit and question being on a network with someone from another country from china from russia whatever like those things don't cross my mind because the reality is is that at the people level there's really not an issue right and so i think that that is the the promise of this technology is that we can sort of not have to i guess you don't have to just settle for reality where everything just has these walls around it right and like hopefully we can shift towards technology that's really actually shared across borders properly rather than it being this like you can access it in the us but you can't access it here or we're not going to enter into a network where there might be people from another country like it just that's not even what the internet was designed for in the first place i think that's a very interesting discussion i think that leads to like the political side of things because software is rapidly becoming more political i mean we have the whole situation of trump trying to extensively ban tick tock um there's a talk about tencent as well right so wechat removing that and i think software becoming more and more political political is actually good for blockchain because blockchain is not political and it's also unstoppable as well because a lot of people were wondering you know at a certain point would china actually try to block bitcoin and that's actually near impossible because the thing is we we know that china in the past they blocked various american tech companies right so they blocked say facebook you want to try to access facebook well you can't tough luck twitter you want to go to china mainland china try to access twitter no you cannot or you may immediately be on era 404 so tech is blockable but what's powerful a bit about bitcoin itself and i think this is where bitcoin is unique in a way is that you only need one megabyte every 10 minutes of data transfer so that's kind of the beauty of it you can mask that data so well that you can still keep these two networks in sync so even if china would try to win go off grid they try to block it it's just one megabyte of data that has to go out of the country or enter the country and then that's done so i think that's a unique proposition over there and i feel also into a point you know can we even make a political software let's say like if we chat is banned can can we have like different like messaging clients in different countries but we'll still communicate on the same blockchain that could be good theoretically yeah i mean theoretically you can right like whatever you can be like a you know we chat me chat cool chat and then everyone's just like communicating with the same protocol and its protocol is decentralized that could be very interesting so i don't know there's a lot there there's a lot there man there's a lot there yeah for sure i mean you look at um you look at the whole concept behind the like banning of technologies it's like we deem as you know as a government or even as like a company like companies will ban software within their their enterprise um it's like we deem this to be harmful or we can't verify that it's not like that is kind of the decision maker and so the shift towards open source protocols and applications like technically everything on a like an ethereum application is open source you can go look at the contract and you can figure out if it's you know if it's doing what it's supposed to do obviously that takes acumen you have to be able to to actually look at it but you know that is an interesting shift like as soon as you stop doing this sort of fly by night closed source application where you're not sure if it's scoping your information or you're not sure what permissions it has like that's when you can say hey whatever country you're from as long as i can verify that you're not up to no good cool doesn't bother me that's actually pretty interesting that's a cool thought i mean that just came across as well because i mean if you look at curved dow right with the deployment of curved dow some other guy deployed it right it wasn't even the core team just like uh it was a crypto chat that deployed it but they managed to verify okay look this is the same contract you know it's gonna perform the exact same features okay let's just adopt that so yeah they said you saved this time yeah i didn't agree with that move but you know what like that's one advantage of crypto you can let's you can you can verify that contract will execute the exact same way that you intended it to so yeah and that's why it's nice like the the erc standards are a great example of that you know you want to verify quickly that an erc standard meets the or that a contract meets the standard you know you're going to have these interface interface signatures basically that you can quickly determine hey this this is supposed this is working as it's supposed to like the you're you you have that validation that it's built right that's from from the standard perspective the other features no but you know the core base right yeah yeah except for those little minor details you know starchy vegetables and all oh my god all right so i think let's do it one last question one last discussion point um what do you think is next i mean we have this whole d5 wave do you think you know do you think this is the thing that was going to lead us there or do you think there's going to be a next wave of some sort of hype after d5 wave i think probably what's going to happen next is that there's going to be the there's going to be a like a protocol battle i think i think in 2021 maybe into 2022 is going to be like the ultimate showdown like super smash bros sort of style battle between all the different protocols that offer smart contract capabilities it's going to be a fight to build out grant money to pay for developers to build d5 products and to build them safely and to build them for scale you know projects like elrond cardano zilliqa algorand tezos they're all going to be fighting this out and they're going to try and go for the same goal and that is to get people on board and to make sure that their network is you know is airtight from that perspective now products being built um and i think that's going to be like the next the next hype it's going to be like okay well which protocol is going to win interesting so you think there's a battle okay interesting and but i think it'll be a friendly battle because there are a lot of projects that take from each other right a friendly battle between the actual projects the fans of the project unlikely we all know how that goes exactly and i think i think that too i think i think there's gonna be nfts i think i mean i'm in the middle ground of discovering how good like how we can actually make this a good play i think you know um you know after defy everyone was like especially in china everyone's like hyping about nfts but nfts in its current form i think it's not too sexy because you know like who wants a a jpeg that you pay 300 000 for right i mean that makes zero sense whatsoever but like having some sort of functionality attached to nfts whether it's used in video games and this is a caveat i mean having been in the video game development space everyone is going to pretend it's easy it's not because you actually have to have a game that's designed around trading and you just can't stick trading on there and expect it to win i think this is the biggest thing that pisses me off with the whole space is that everyone's like oh let me figure a popular game fortnite plus trading oh my god why aren't they doing this yet well there's good reason because people who play fortnite want to shoot each other they don't want to sit in a medieval you know auction house buying gear and buying the armor it's just not fun right so i think a lot of people need to start understanding what makes games fun and how to fit trading into games and i think that's going to be key so i think it's still going to happen but it's going to have to happen in some form that recognizes that to build something fun or useful it's going to be hard but we can we can make it happen if we actually try hard at it so i think nfts are still going to happen but we just have to be very very rigorous with it and i think yeah d5 after d5 maybe something with nfts and then the protocol battle protocol wars uh 2022 uh here we come here we go i mean i agree with you on nfts it's probably my behind interoperability it is my favorite avenue i think for from like a tech development perspective in the space and there's so much there's so much there like it it taps into the human innate desire to collect stuff right like i have like base like baseball cards and like you know trading cards from when i was a kid like these things are worth a cent in reality but it's like the intrinsic value you associate with something whether it's code or if it's paper it's largely the same sort of mental state that you have to be in for it exactly and i think we just need to figure out how to separate that from just jpeg because obviously you know what's the difference we like a card is a real object so i guess we have we can have the sentimental value but if it's just like uh uh uh image you look at this picture then we can't we can't we just can't do that so maybe it has to have some more functionality there so we'll see how that goes and hopefully we can catch up so um guys check out for us channel hashtoshi explains so much stuff it's just insane um yeah make sure you guys keep watching and yeah uh hope yeah to see you soon absolutely and thanks for having me on and and for folks watching on my channel please do subscribe to box mining one of my the first channels that i ever subscribed to on the old crypto youtube so nice thanks man thanks man