Future of Ethereum and Crypto with Crypt0 and Ran NeuNer

Hey guys and welcome back to Box Mining. This next video is a live stream that was originally broadcast during DEF CON and I really wanted to share with you guys there because there's so much good discussion. So who's in there? It's Omar Crypto. He has the Crypto's news channel and it's absolutely amazing. He has a lot of insights into space and also CNBC's Rand Nooner. And he asks a lot of really good questions and a lot of inputs as to what the future of DEF CON is and what the future of the whole cryptocurrency space is. Special thanks to Omar as well. He's an amazing guy, helped me with a lot of my video stuff and he gave me permission to publish this video on my channel as well. So thank you so much Omar. Hello everyone and welcome back to Crypto's News. I'm here with two very special guests. So nice to have you both on at the same time. Welcome. How are you guys doing? Box Mining and Mr. Crypto Man Ren. How's it going? Absolutely amazing. Last day at DEF CON here. So many people just gathering to there, being friends. It's amazing. It has been amazing. Very seldom do you see on the last day of the conference that the conference hall is still full. But if you walk around it today, everyone's still here. It's like, when are you guys going home? I know. Even when they're hungover, they still show up, huh? Yeah. So what's some of the most exciting things that you've seen that have gotten you coming back today on the last day and not staying in your rooms or leaving? You mean other than the parties? I mean, so the parties have been fantastic. That I can say really that the guys have pulled out all the stops to have good parties. In general, very excited about the fact that we've got all the trash out of the ecosystem. Yeah. And that the people that are here are real builders. People with high intellect, building good projects, all working together to build an ecosystem. You know, you sit in the workshops here and people are working together to build mass adoption on-ramps and off-ramps. Yeah. With things that we didn't even think that we needed, you know, like basic things that we didn't even think that we needed are being built here. So I think this is probably the most important conference in the whole circuit, specifically around the ETH blockchain. Wow. And for you, Michael? Yeah. For DevCons, I think it's people who do actual stuff. So it's not people who have fluff. I mean, you know, just talk about grand ideas. We did have a very grand idea yesterday, the whole blockchain city. You know, we'll talk about that later. What did you think about that? What did you think about that? What did you think about that? Okay. So I got pretty skeptical because we got like 3D printing on the blockchain city. We got like airports on the blockchain. We got like on blockchain. So I feel like, yet again, like it's too much. That was what I like. I like the fact that we can have cities on a blockchain. I think this is an idea being discussed a lot. Like there might be some aspects of a smart city can do it, but not everything. Yeah. So I think that that was a lethal combination of marijuana, mushrooms and money. I think that's a good question. Because I don't understand how anybody could think of creating a city like that. It's so far-fetched. And I mean, incubating forward. We've seen it before, right? I mean, like people trying to build smart cities. Do you think that the approach that they're taking is going to be more likely to succeed? Or do you not believe these at all? For example, the Seasteads that we've seen. First of all, I don't believe that you need blockchain to build a city and that you don't need to build a city on blockchain. You may have certain things within every city that require a blockchain. Exactly. But to build a city around blockchain and to build it around an incubator of four projects, which are completely ludicrously unrelated. I mean, again, it's a magical combination of drugs and money because there's a lot of money there. I mean, that event must be cost. Well, the thing is, it's a marketing play, right? Because they have a render of a city. I mean, everyone can draw a render of a city. But in fact, what do they actually have? They just say, oh, we're going to have a mini space to work on this right now. It's not like that because they have a render of a city. They claim to have bought a bank. They've spent a lot of money on marketing. I mean, last night's event was $200,000, $300,000. The advertising campaign around the whole city was another close to half a million dollars minimum. So you're talking about people with a lot of money. I heard they hired the best PR firm, if not in the whole world, to set up an entire directive. But I heard a lot of concerns on the bus. People saying it's a lot of subliminal messaging because they had the trailer playing on loop. Luckily, it was only audio on the first time through. But it was weird. It was very controlled. They actually had a bomb squad there with dogs. I've never been pat down at an airport to that level. I almost felt violated. It was so strange. It was surreal. You get someone talking about community and someone talking about Ethereum and how much they're a part of the community. And then they walk around the hall of the Ethereum developers surrounded by six bodyguards. And, you know, if you wanted to approach him, you had to approach within a certain angle. I thought I was going to get tackled when I went up to him, but I still got close enough that I could have got. Now, I respect what he's doing. Honestly, I think he's a hero just for fighting coin. I mean, the IRS and the Coinbase case, Jeffrey Burns, because a lot of people, I feel like, are pushovers in the space. So at least I give him that. So I call him a hero early on when I heard about that. So we'll see if he actually has, you know, the gumption to continue to do what he's doing. And somebody told me there's about a 5% chance they will succeed. And it's going to be about execution at this point. Succeeding for what? Succeeding for what? Like what do you define success in this state? Building a city out or just having one projects like getting some sort of adoption? I think it's like the vision is just way too, like, like too much flop. It's very much, it sounds very much like a 2017 ICO. You know, like promising the world. And I almost expect the people to start throwing ether in 2017. I'm not sure it's going to be that easy. If this was 2017, everybody would have been very excited. And they would have been like, one ICO with enthusiasm instead of the whole time I was moderating the stream here, being like, when's the ICO going to be pitched? Maybe they spent a year planning this whole thing, you know, like they planned this whole event last year when it was hot. And then they had like a bunch of ICO buttons and they just deleted that. The other day, you know, it's funny. I must say the event was fantastic. The event was a high grade event. The level of the production, both on the way to the event and the event. And you know, the fact that there were walls in the city with the advert playing on the walls and the hologram. I mean, that was a great event. It was like, they didn't cut any corners, not even on the security, as you rightly mentioned. So, people were concerned apparently on Reddit that everybody's going to be murdered. I joked about it on the bus. Maybe they're bringing all the blockchain people here just to murder everybody. And they have people in World Crypto Con in Malta as well. But you say that, it's quite scary because like so many bright minds gathered here. If something did happen here right now, this is like devastating. That would be devastating. That would be a big devastation to the ecosystem. When you walk around here, you've got Ethereum developers, you've got EOS developers, you've got Bitcoin Cash developers. I even think I saw Satoshi. I mean, everyone's here. This is a real gathering. Satoshi or fake Toshi? Fake Toshi, no. I heard this community actually doesn't like him very much. From what I've heard. I don't think he's welcome here. In fact, if I remember correctly, he's blocked Vitalik on Twitter or something like that. Oh, dang. One of those things. Don't quote me on this. Because Vitalik called him out, you know, like just signal properly. If you want to prove that I'm Satoshi, just send that fucking money. As guys who travel to all these different conferences, what are some of the ones you've been to recently? How does this crowd differ from those? So this is a dev con. This is no bells and whistles. This is no hype. Not a single ICO in the whole place. This is real stuff. This is where I come not to produce the show, but actually to work on the fund and to meet projects and stuff like that. When you go to the other conferences, and there are some very good conferences. I mean, I really enjoy Beyond Blocks. I really enjoy CryptoInvest Summit. Are you going to Beyond Blocks? Yeah, I probably will be at Beyond Blocks. But for me, Beyond Blocks is one of the best conferences out there in terms of quality. I like Consensus Invest as well. I think that's a good one. What I'm trying to stay away from, except for when I have to for the purpose of the show, is the retail, retail, retail conferences. You know, the ICO shill conferences. And I mean, on the one hand, it's very good to create that bridge from people who don't know anything about crypto to bring them into crypto. But on the other hand, it's a platform for B-grade ICOs and scam coins to pitch themselves. And I'm kind of interested to see what happens next. And all these shark tanks and all that? Yeah, I mean, will they be able to raise money? I don't think so. I mean, if you see these ICOs, they're not raising any more money. And you know what? I think it's a great thing. Okay, so now your question is this. Alright, so ICOs is over. Everyone who's on the ICO board, they're jumping to STOs. And real quick, just to introduce, I'm sorry to intrude, but we have some people joining the stream. I invite you guys to hit the like button. Let us know what you think in the comments as well. We are live now. It's not like a premiere. So feel free to run the stream. I'll check in when I can. I'll be posting content for you guys all day. But let me introduce these guys because you might not be familiar with them. So this is Michael Gu, who actually is Box Mining. He's got one of the biggest YouTube channels. Amazing, objective content. Follow him on Instagram, Twitter, and you're going to have a wealth of ideas and insights and news and all sorts of stuff. And then here you have Crypto Man Ran, who's really been such a leading voice in the space as well with the mainstream. Really helping crypto have a good outlet. Not just like negativity or approaching it without a lot of experience. So you're hitting all the conferences, talking to a lot of brilliant minds, and you produce a show. What is it, once a week? I produce a show. It's now twice a week sometimes. Wow. It's called Crypto Trader. As far as I know, it's the only ongoing televised cryptocurrency show in the world. Yeah, and the purpose of it is really to bring crypto knowledge to bridge the gap between traditional finance and crypto finance in a more credible way. Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to add to Ran, you know, like this is my first time meeting him at the conference. And dude, like, I had a lot of like pre-connotations beforehand, you know, journalists and you know, maybe they don't know that much about crypto. I watch a bit of your stuff, but like, dude, you are so awesome in real life, man. Dude, like, I really enjoy it. He's like the coolest guy ever. Like, dude, seriously. So, super respect that. I really do. I respect what you guys are both doing. I mean, I think the fact that you guys have been able to build such big followings and the fact that you guys are producing daily and weekly videos despite the bear market and despite the number of subscribers and views coming down. I think like all bear markets, we're going to shake out the riffraff and I think the best are going to survive. We've seen that already with you guys, for example. I was just wondering today, like, how can I make my channel better, get better interview content? What are you guys doing right? And I actually thought about you guys and I was thinking, you know, it's all about the questions you asked, right? So obviously in your mind, you're thinking critically, you're asking questions about all sorts of projects and you have kind of an attitude about like really prove yourself first. Yeah, I'm kind of a douche. I'm like, I'm kind of say like, I'm like, I don't pretend to be nice sometimes, but what I do right now is I'm trying to just go around. You're the nice guy. Yeah, you're the nice guy. So I go around with my camera, I just shut my mic into one's faces nowadays. It's kind of fun. I think what's important is just like being like, just walking around and doing stuff. So for me, it's, I have a very different philosophy for me. I'm learning. I learn every day as I think we all are learning. And my objective is to take my viewers on the learning journey that I go on, which is why my show started as an in studio show only. And the sponsors were in studio sponsors. And I moved the show to conferences. And the reason is I was learning so much at conferences. I wanted to bring the users and the viewers with me on the learning journey. So this is like my show is a personal journey and I'm bringing everyone with me and we'll make mistakes along the way. We'll meet amazing people. As you know, I try and get all the most interesting people, including you guys on my next show. Yeah, we were just on this show. So definitely subscribe. Thank you so much, man. You actually had great questions was what I was going to say as well. Excellent questions you asked us about the event. So you'll be able to check that out later on. It's kind of funny you say that as well. Cause like I did the discovery journey last year as well. The first one I went to was in Shanghai and there was like 30, like something odd ICOs there. It was like absolutely crazy. There were like booth babes, like all dressed up in like skimpy clothing. Things have changed. How things have changed. Things have changed. And before I think if it's a first conference, it's actually, wow. Okay. That's what happens. But then when you can see like 30 conferences that all do this, you're like, okay, I think it's time to put the fluff aside now. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And this is why this conference is good. Like this conference gives you hope. Like this. There's no number of fluff outside. No, no. There is one. There was one. There was one. It's a black one. It's Vitalik's Lambo for sure. Absolutely. I'm just starting getting in. I did not see him getting into that, man. I just want to, I'm really humbled you guys are on the show. Sincerely, because you guys are great hosts as well. People are excited to see the content. And so, so the chat like, waving to everyone here. Right now we currently have 143 people because everybody in LA is probably asleep still. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm excited to share this journey with you guys. What are you looking forward to next? What have you learned that has changed the narrative in your mind about crypto at the event? So I'm looking forward to a holiday. I mean, I've been on the conference circuit for now 14 months every week. Wow. I've got a young family at home. So for me, I want to spend a month with a family. So until beyond blocks or consensus or whatever we decide to do towards the end of the year, I'm going to be much more in studio. In terms of the ecosystem, I'm excited about the fact that the hype is gone. And I'm excited about the fact that the scams are gone. And I'm excited about the fact that the people that are left are really building stuff. I'm excited about the fact that people can't just have a website and start raising $30 million. In fact, today, even if you have the best project, to raise $5 million is hard. Yeah. I'm also excited about the fact that developers are going to have to start thinking like entrepreneurs. You're not going to get $30 million anymore. You may get $5 million. And you're going to have to make do with $5 million. You're going to have to bootstrap. And you're going to have to grow a protocol on $5 million. And all those things excite me because I think we can now get down to serious business. It's no longer about hype-ville and bullshit. And I think if we've lasted this long and we can last another year or two, then there will really be rewards for all of us in this ecosystem. No matter what your outlet is or no matter whether you're on a fund or a YouTube channel or a TV show, whatever it is, if you can survive this bear market and you emerge, then it'll be like the bear market of 2000 where the Amazons and the Googles, those are the ones that survived. And they got very well rewarded. And how are you approaching that perhaps? I think there's still a lot of dreams here. So I'm going to take it like, okay, so the scams are gone. There's still a lot of dreams that are trying to change everything. I think blockchain is everything. So I still think there are some projects that, you know, there's still a lot of testing and still a lot of failures. I think it's very important. There was a song yesterday where Vitalik was singing about all the failures that they come along the way. I think it's important that the community will realize that. There's still going to be like hit plus and bumps along the way. The clear scams are gone. So people in this industry really have the wrong perception. And I'll tell you why. Because you're juggling the investment ball with creating blockchain, like bringing blockchain to the real world ball. Now, there's actually two different objectives. The investors want every project to succeed and therefore they want safety and they want high returns. But the developers need to take as many risks as possible and to fail as many times as possible. And let me explain to you why. If you think about it, it's like a city and like a jungle. If you want to go into the city, every road has a road sign and every intersection has a traffic light and there's signs and you know exactly how to get from point A to point B. But these people have actually gone into the jungle. And for them, it's all trees. And every step forward that they have to take means they have to chop down one more tree. Now, for me, what we need to do is we need to change our mindset to celebrate more people that experiment and fail. Failure is not a bad thing. Failure is a great thing. It means that you've decided to go somewhere that no one else has gone. And by virtue of that, you've gone into the forest. And by virtue of that, it means that you'll fail more times than you will succeed. But when you succeed, your success will be revolutionary and groundbreaking. Yeah. So in this industry, investors are going, no, don't raise money. No, don't do ICOs. No, don't split the chain. No, do it. Because when you do, you're going into uncharted territory. And we never know what the breakthroughs are that are going to be revolutionary. Let me give you an example. CryptoKitties was a game. It was taking an ERC token and making an ERC 721 standard. It created a new asset class of digital collectibles, which are going to be a multi-billion dollar industry. Now, would that have happened if we didn't let people experiment? And if we shut the profile? Well, okay. I would actually make a counter argument here. Okay. So CryptoKitties is amazing. I don't hate CryptoKitties. But there are still a lot of formulas that they use, which was very grounded. All right. So you probably heard of the main criticism of CryptoKitties as a giant pyramid scheme. Because the faster your kitties breed, the more they're worth. And the more you want to make them produce as many kitties as possible. So... But the more you breed them, the less fast, the less quick they... Yeah, but what I want to say is CryptoKitties actually, if you analyze it from a game design perspective, it is very, very well made. They knew exactly what their core pillars are. And they went like, what precision strike. Okay. Let's make this as like breeding as strong as possible. Let people make money. The top breeders, let them make money. So they'll push our game. So they have this whole virality thing down to a science. So I think like, in that sense, we still need to have a very good idea of what the fundamentals of what we're targeting here. And I think it's... They created a digital collectible. They created an ERC-721 standard. Yeah. And they used it. Yeah, but that was around for a long time. It was cool. They used it to show us how we could actually use it. Yes, yes. I completely agree with that. I definitely, I was like, like, dude, like this is super cool. This shows us how... I haven't heard about people running side projects now. Some of these actually people just trying to figure out how to get into the gaming world. I'm like, normal gaming, no crypto gaming. Everybody's trying to take advantage of non-fungible tokens, collectibles. Even though the first digital collectible was actually Bitcoin. Yeah. Good, honest, smart experimentation. Which is done, when I say smart, both smart in terms of the technical, but also smart in terms of the rollout and the money raised. Which should be encouraging. What do you guys think about back to institutions coming on board? Any thoughts? I know it's a hot topic right now. What have you learned? What have you been sharing? Okay, I'll say this first. I feel like a lot of people are waiting for more institutions to come in when in fact there's a lot of people who are already, you know, a lot of big family offices are already trying to come in this place in the first place. I'm happy that people will, like once back launches, there's a lot of kind of Wall Street authority that's going to push to a new audience. But I think we're going to leave it at that, you know, like. So when that comes in line, what are we actually getting? We're getting a Bitcoin, we're getting a place for institutions to be able to buy into one asset, which is Bitcoin. And that, yeah, may or may not work. And I don't think it's going to be that they switch on the 12th of December and that all the institutions are on the 12th of December at 1am going to climb in and throw money at us. Holy shit man! If the institutions want it on Bitcoin, there's many options for them to get in. I mean Grayscale's got some amazing products which allow institutions to buy listed products that are backed by real Bitcoin. So, I know what's the best one? It's called the Bitcoin Core. Download the Core, get a code wallet. Like, there's no substitute for that. And I think backed is a good on-ramp for that. That's what it is. What do you think is, if it's not backed, what do you think would be the thing that would give institutions that, that would give institutions that, that would be the best. The, the, the know of the space, the reputation in the space, looking at it and say, I, I, I want to get involved now. I don't, I want to buy some GBTC Upgrade, still investments, or I want to be trading on the CBO, CME, because you're right. There are options now, but they're still not here. You need two things. You need institutional on-ramps and off-ramps which are being built. Custodians, institutional grade exchanges. You need legislation, which is, yes, Bitcoin is regulated in most jurisdictions, but you need more legislation around the rest of the ecosystem. But then, you need this thing, right? Now, I know no one wants to talk about it, but you need this thing called adoption. That you, you need people to actually start using blockchain. Because institutions, let's think of a pension fund. And the pension fund manager walks into his board meeting and he's just lost a lot of money on crypto. And he stands there and they say to him, alright, just tell us exactly what you invested in. He says, look, I invested in this instrument called the utility token. It gives me no rights. It gives the company no obligations to me. And actually, it doesn't even work on the network. By the way, you can also use other tokens on the network except for the utility token. That guy's gonna lose his job. So we need to get our shit together. So STOs might be exciting, you know, providing dividends monthly, like quarterly reports, this kind of thing. Well, it's just more of disabled. It's just the stock market, yet again. It's like, look, it's a digital company. You see something happening way more revolutionary, even on a short term. So, yeah, I think for a while, like I've been talking about this a little bit earlier, but I'm going to repeat this. The idea that Bitcoin cannot be replaced when governments fail, right? When governments fail, when there's a mass hyperinflation, like what we saw in Venezuela and Sakuira were telling me about that. And in China, even China, there's no value transfer out of the country that's not monitored by the government. So there is a need for some form of value transfer around the world. And crypto right now, it's global. Like we see this in so many countries. So for me, there's a few use cases. One is global transfer of value. Yes. Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, XRP, you name it. Yes. I'm not going to name it. But you know what I'm talking about. Currency slash store of value. One vertical. One vertical. The next one is what we currently call the utility token, which I think will change. And that's what we're seeing here. That's use cases in apps, in dApps, etc, etc. And then there's a third vertical, which is STOs, which are going to use blockchains. We don't know which blockchain or which standard yet to put the traditional financial system onto the blockchain and to create new financial instruments. So today we have very limited financial instruments. We have equity, we have debt, and we have some convertible notes and stuff in between. We don't have a single instrument today that can give you 2-3% of all Coca-Cola's transactions in real time when the sales are logged. Because there's no trust and it doesn't happen. Let me give you an example. I'm working with a Greek shipping company. And they were trying to raise money in the equity markets. They couldn't. Why? Because they need to buy $500 million worth of ships. But now we have a new model. And the new model is you're going to get, through a smart contract, you're going to get a rate times the nautical miles traveled by the ship times the weight. And that's going to be monitored through a smart contract where the oracle to the smart contract is the ship's navigation system. Yeah. Which knows the weight and the miles of the ship. Now that instrument wouldn't have been possible as a security in the old security world because there would be no trust. Such a good point. So now that's very exciting. But I think all three verticals... So you're not talking about just about securities, but securitized assets or securitized tokens. It's interesting you're talking about that because the Bitcoin maximalist size says that, you know, all these different altcoins have no reason to exist. You can integrate a lot of their properties, privacy, smart contracts into Bitcoin. So why use anything else? Do you think Bitcoin will be able to do that quick enough? Or do you think we do need smart contracts? And what platforms are you guys excited about? Obviously, you could have gone to many conferences and you came to DevCon. Are you interested in Ethereum or something else that's more exciting as well? Or multiple things? This is not what I believe, but this is a hypothesis. But if you look at Bitcoin, the reason why Bitcoin didn't do it is because it had two limitations. One is you couldn't do a smart contract, a real smart contract on the Bitcoin platform. And it was too slow. That's really what it was. But lightning is starting to work. And that's making transactions really cheap and really quick. So that's one of the barriers removed. And then you've got things like rootstock, which are allowing smart contracts on the Bitcoin platform. Do they have a token now? And it pissed everybody off? Like you don't need a token. There is magic. So I don't know. We'll see. I think for me, it's like Bitcoin, the value of Bitcoin is that simple. Okay. So for Bitcoin, there's accounting layer only. Smart contracts, they disable a lot of different smart contracts and executions. They want to keep it as functional as possible. So I think for me personally, that's the best way to use Bitcoin. Everything else on top of that, building this whole infrastructure, I don't think they really want to do that. If you look at the governance of Bitcoin and the core developers and their views, because they're the only ones who can really change the core code, right? Like that's what we see. Like even though it's decentralized, we've seen the other variants of the Bitcoin client. They're not very popular at all. I think I'll ask you guys both a question. Do you think that one of Bitcoin's biggest hindrances is that it's so decentralized? When you compare it, for example, to Ethereum, where Ethereum is decentralized, but there is a central figure called Vitalik. Exactly. And there is a vision that's driven by Vitalik. Now, do you think that maybe Bitcoin has been slow to progress? And a lot of it is because there's always this cat and mouse between all the different parties. Whereas Ethereum's kind of got this like roadmap and it's 4 giga head on the roadmap. So the question is, do you think that the decentralization of Bitcoin may be its biggest hindrance? And the fact that we do have a central figure here at Ethereum may be one of the biggest assets that this ecosystem is. So I definitely think there's a balance. So the more decentralization you have, the harder it is to make something work. That's really important to recognize that. It's like decentralization is like we don't want to go back to communism days, right? Where it's like, oh, communism is great on paper. You know, everyone like let's share money to everyone. Everyone has a boat. Everyone has a right. And then and then you get to a point where, OK, we can't do anything. Right. So you have to have that kind of balance. I think right now, Bitcoin as a store of value, you don't want anyone else touching your store of value. All right. You have a Swiss bank. It's like it's nice. It's safe. It's under a mountain. No one can touch it. Ethereum is like super hyperspeed, right? You're putting your your money on hyperspeed rails here. They're going to change the entire engine of Ethereum. They're going to move to proof of stake. How crazy is that? I thought later on on why proof of stake? Yeah. I mean, gun sire. I don't know how to pronounce it. Exactly. And it's so hard. It's like starting proof of stake. These are like fundamental changes. How scary is that on something like do you trust like for value transfer to be on there? OK, for a store of value, maybe not so much. I think that's why I think there's different uses. Right. I agree with you, man. I don't. I'm not going to be like the most points and I wrote them all. Probably the number one value about Bitcoin is if there's only 21 million that will ever exist, not going to change. I think that would be extremely there would be a lot of resistance to that no matter what. And then the other part of it is security. Right. You don't. You're absolutely right. They don't want to be pushing out the software, but at the same time, if it's bad game. I'm going to give you guys some coins and just say yes or no. And let's just three years forward. OK? OK. Bitcoin. Of course. Yes. Ethereum. Of course. Litecoin. Yeah. Three years? Yeah. Why? The community is insane. And there's a lot of people who... Maybe. Yeah. It's a precursor. So you're going to test out all the Bitcoin things beforehand. I think that's the biggest justification for us. What is the value of a Bitcoin testnet? Is it 1% of Bitcoin's value? Is it 10% of Bitcoin's value? What is the value of a Bitcoin testnet? Fundamentally, the way I see Litecoin, if it is going to position itself as a Bitcoin testnet, it doesn't have much value. It's a little bro, man. It's like... It's a fair point. Ethereum has just that worth, you know? Ethereum has COVID. You have all these different testnets and people are breaking things all the time. But Roxton just went down. Charlie's also doing both of the atomic swaps and adding support for that. So you don't know. That's a question mark. I mean, that's like... How successful can they push you with Litecoin? Okay. So Litecoin, maybe... Yes. EOS. EOS? That was a tricky one. I'll be honest. I'm not entirely sold on it. Absolutely. There's a lot of problems with governance that needs to be taken place. The community is quite divided. Yes to him or yes to EOS? No, no. I said yes to EOS. And I was super excited about it EOS. I said yes to EOS because it's a balance point. It's a balance point. You have to have middle points. Like, not everything is going to be needing that severe amount of decentralization. Let me ask you guys another one. xrp unfortunately yes absolutely no okay in three or four years it's not going to be around walk me through it so xrp what i feel like is that um a lot of the services that they do they're trying to we have to separate ripple from xrp right that's what i've been doing for a long time ripple itself i think it's going to be absolutely awesome okay it's going to challenge swift it's going to give swift a good run for the money but but xrp it's not a good store of value because it can be frozen it's exactly what the banking structure is doing so why are we moving to something that's exactly the same just that's a little bit of research and i'm not i'm not i mean you guys feel free to make up your own minds they are pushing to make xrp more decentralized it hasn't been decentralized up until now that they admit but they are pushing to make it more decentralized and when you look at the new products like the x rapid product there actually is a real use case for xrp like i i was very sorry from from from like from one bank to go to xrp and then to to another to xrp to another bank and going down to that to why why would you ever want to do that like you can just send a simple message to say okay look i trust the best like use case the best currency if you want to ever do that it's called the us dollar and it's got the exact same the us dollar physically from point a to point b if you want to send us dollars from the usa to mexico how do you do it yeah you use whatever the whatever ripple technology yeah you swift or you use the ripple method okay you use x current we have all this right so for money only messages okay i've sent a message it sends a message that this amount of money is transferred right otherwise i'm not i'm not a big i mean i'm indifferent yeah so for me it's i'm not sure it's a good question man i was just thinking like realistically it's going to take longer i think for a lot of these coins to wither away you talked about some high coins right now those coins are all probably going to be around there's a lot of holders in the game i have a lot of clout 10 years from now if that that would be a completely different question i i agree with you completely xrp is kind of pointless right now everyone prefers to use x current it's more auditable internally faster blockchain whatever why decentralize it's going to slow it down that's the actual purpose for it that's what i would think um i think ethereum's a smart contract leader so eos is going to have to work really really hard and what about enterprise yeah like for vechain i was like very big into vechain because they're the ones who have the partners on board already like pwc and also the mvgl luxury brands yeah so so i think there's a lot of like additional things we can use on top of that i think that makes a lot of sense and that's why you know what about bitcoin cash you know what i love the bitcoin cash developer but i'm gonna say a solid no for that i would say as long as craig wright isn't around too much i would say probably it'll be around they're gonna have a hard fork on november 15th i was actually chatting with amari sachet who's a developer brilliant mind and actually i'm really excited i still i see the community actually growing it's being adopted i actually lost my wallet i think i talked to you uh earlier about that i lost my wallet back when we were on the cruise ship and got it getting off in monaco and i saw a sign at a restaurant that said we accept bitcoin cash and i was like this is awesome because i have my phone but i don't have my wallet and that's something i don't see everywhere with bitcoin scientists i think if bitcoin cash wants to progress it needs to be progress beyond just roger ver or having some sort of person pushing it i agree with you but on the other hand i look at bitcoin cash and bitcoin cash to me has a strategy and it's being executed the strategy is being executed on by entrepreneurs right so i can't look at like dr craig wright i look at roger i look at the whole gang and those guys are wake up every morning and they're vigilant and they focus on one thing they focus like a lot of people complain to me about the problems of core that you know working together is very hard because they're so smart you know they're so smart they're thinking about you know a million ways um years ahead in terms of like okay what's gonna what's gonna happen for me personally i feel like we need better entrepreneurs um beyond that i think i think you're absolutely right entrepreneurs they are yes yes yes yes and i've always said this for a while like you need both right you need techies and the hustle i mean i've been interviewed that bitcoin gandalf um wiffio defy um he's been around he's got a guy who invented public crypto uh public private key cryptography though wiffio delman helman exchange uh drork exchange he was like he didn't realize how many hustlers were needed to bring this technology forward so i absolutely agree with you entrepreneurs guys who can just hustle and just shove that shit everywhere so there we go now when i walk around here the biggest problem that i see yes is that there's a lot of techies and what they think is that they think that they're going to write a protocol and then it's just going to work no you need the hustle you need the hustle you need the hustle but we're going to have better hustlers coming in i think this is um the part about this year a lot of the hustlers that we saw they're scammers they're just not a hustle for money but now we need hustlers that can hustle for a product to really push that product forward for adoption absolutely a battle between bitcoin and the fiat money happening first or bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies and that playing out first bitcoin fiat money has already been battle like china they love bitcoin because we have to have one winner in bitcoin versus fiat money ultimately within like the next three or three years five years or versus cryptocurrencies as being number one undisputed not going to change what do you guys think i don't know if it's three or five years or ten years that's the problem um my timing in this industry has been a little bit off because i think i'm not a techie and i don't appreciate the amount of work that needs to be built around the technology but in the long term it's an absolute no-brainer i mean even governments have said that they need a currency that is decentralized that is not controlled or manipulated by any other by any government exactly so in the long term i think there's no doubt that bitcoin or a derivative of bitcoin or blockchain will replace fiat money uh whether it's three four five ten fifteen years i don't know yeah you know this is like i think for me i think the battle's already begun in china and a lot of the places and i think in the future i don't think we're going to ask this question anymore that's my that's why i love that thank you guys so much for being on i really appreciate it thank you so much and it's just um shameless shout out to um financial inclusion david lee is going to give his talk um i think that's actually something else that we need to cover as well your subs as well your channels where people can reach out to box mining shout out to everyone on channel as well i'm cmb if you want to join me on youtube yeah yeah everyone else you're trying to catch vitalik now you have a great guest a few minutes yeah you know and we were on a show recently can you make him dance for me can you make him dance make him sing okay make him sing yeah to finish up uh do you guys like anchovies on your caesar salad yes or no love anchovies on anything pizza caesar salad no i love pineapple pineapple pineapple everywhere thank you you're the only other person