Are Non-Fungible Tokens (NFTs) the NEXT BIG THING? debate with Yat Siu (REVV, SAND)

So this week, non-fungible tokens, also known as NFTs, have been blowing up. On Twitter, on Reddit, practically everywhere, people are talking about the use of non-fungible tokens for video games, for art, for intellectual property. There's so many different applications that's exploding this week. And to fill you guys in on the discussion, we have one of the forefathers, the guy at the front of all this, who is Yasu. He's the co-founder of Animoca Brands. And this company has been involved in almost everything, from being the distributor of CryptoKitties in Asia, to being investors in Axie Infinity. And also, right now, they're starting up Sandbox, which is listed on Binance Labs already, actually on Binance. And then also, the Rev project as well, for Delta Time. So he's got a lot of insight into everything that's happening in the NFT space. And this video was really a discussion, kind of almost a debate, between the merits of non-fungible tokens and also some of the limitations as well. This is what makes this video exciting, because you get really both sides of the argument and an insight into what's happening in this space. Now, this video was taken from my live stream, but there were some audio problems that couldn't be fixed during the live, which I managed to fix for this interview. So that's why it might look a little bit odd with the edits there, but we did our best to fix the audio problems and make this video much better. So hope you guys enjoy the video. And let's start off with an introduction to Yat and what he's been doing in this space. I'm really happy to be here. So as I mentioned, I'm Yat. I'm the chairman and co-founder of Animoca Brands. But my own background, actually, I've been sort of in gaming for, well, since the 80s. My very first job was with Atari, actually, back in the 80s. And so I have a little bit of a history there. And I've been a lifelong gamer. And then when I moved to Hong Kong, I actually set up one of Hong Kong's first internet service providers called Hong Kong Online in the early 90s. So I'm really dating myself. And so me being in this whole blockchain space gives me sort of goosebumps of the memories of the internet days in the mid 90s. I see it at a similar stage, and that gets me really excited. Maybe in terms of sort of what we are doing now is we've been doing sort of commercial video games with branded games now for well over a decade. And, you know, one of the studios that we were working closely with and actually ended up acquiring, a company called Fuel Powered in Vancouver, it's a founder of that business, ended up becoming the co-founder of CryptoKitties in 2017. So we got a front row seat. As a result, we became the distributors of CryptoKitties in the region, became an early shareholder in what now is Dapper Labs. And we saw the potential of what non-fungible tokens could do to our industry from a video games perspective. And so it went all in. So we invested in Decentraland, we invested in OpenSea. We basically launched Sandbox, which recently had the Sand token launch in Binance. And of course, there's a REV token as well for Formula One. But also have made multiple investments in the space. So we're not only just making our own content, we're trying to help seed the ecosystem by investing in companies. So we are also one of the first or early shareholders in Axie Infinity, you know, last year as well. So, you know, many of the sort of blockchain gaming projects that you're seeing out there that are getting some attention, we've been involved with them for maybe in some cases two years now. So, yeah, it's an interesting time. We've always been big believers in the space. And I'm hoping that that will sort of evolve into something greater and much more meaningful. I think like something that's cool about NFTs. I mean, this is something that's very interesting. I actually had a very cool background share with Yad because we are both gamers. He's a lot more OG than I am, obviously. And he's done a lot more than I have in the space as well. So lots of credits there. And I think something that's very involved in why he's one of the perfect guests right now is because with the NFC and NFT and NFT discussion coming up, he's been there for like years now. Right. Like early investor. He's like the 10 cent of NFTs. I just got like equity and almost everything in the space. Right. So now you definitely see a lot of opportunities, but obviously there were. I think this is something that we discussed before. Right. You know, in terms of expectation, is this you know, do you think that we're where are we in the adoption phase in your eyes? Yeah. So we're still very, very early. Right. I think my view is that I think we've kind of maybe finally crossed that where we went from the innovative stage into the beginnings of the early adopter stage. And one of the things that I've you know, one of the narratives that two years ago we were definitely excited about was that, well, look, there's like over two billion gamers out there and they could use this concept of sort of real assets in games. So there was some effort and thought done around that. But then we came to realize, actually, wait, hold on a second. There's like 47 to 50 million crypto wallets out there and there's only 150,000 of them that have an NFT. So it became very clear to us earlier in the years. And actually, the awareness within the crypto community itself on NFTs was super early. So even though we're seeing right now, you know, obviously a little bit of hype and a little bit of excitement, a little bit of things. Many of the people who are coming into the space are like, what is an NFT? Oh, I heard about crypto kitties, but I don't really know that much about it. Right. Because of the non fungible nature, you can't trade it immediately or at least in a specific thought, you can't trade immediately. So many of them are just like, I don't really know about this, so I'm going to move on. And they never went deeper into this. So there is an actually more sort of shorter term opportunity as well to sort of, you know, bring the early adoption cycle into the crypto community. Right. So we've got a global early adoption cycle, but you've actually got a micro early adoption cycle within the crypto community, which is just broad awareness of NFTs. Right. And it just blew me away when we discovered that, you know, you know, a single digit percentile of crypto guys actually have an NFT. Yeah, I think so too. And like recently we saw like a few projects try to kick off, you know, there's NFTs for art, there's NFTs for video games, there's NFTs for. And something that's interesting, it's not just video games, but also intellectual property as well. That's kind of interesting. And now we're exploring the assets of like smart NFTs or maybe NFTs representing land, et cetera. So we're at this early adoption phase. Obviously, I think for me, obviously, I wanted the 2 billion gamers to get on board, right? To immediately say, yo, you know, let's get this. Let's push crypto adoption forward. It's potentially a low hanging fruit, but also we've been, you know, it's starting out. And I think that's the issue here is the management of expectations. Right. And I think, you know, you've been in gaming space for a long time. You probably know that starting out isn't as easy as most people think it is. Right. I think it's not going to be a magic overnight thing. And do you see that as also coming for NFTs? Do you see that's coming as a very slow adoption or? Okay. Well, maybe to draw sort of take one of the things about gaming, which is amazing, is it may start slow, but when it picks up, it goes boom. Right. I mean, you've seen this with mobile games. We've seen this with PC games. Right. The gaming industry is one of those things where because the game itself is fun or cool or interesting, it can have massive adoption because of the game itself. And then drives an industry forward just because of it. In fact, gaming often leads industries forward. I mean, if it wasn't for gaming, then you probably wouldn't have NVIDIA be the size that it is or AMD. Right. Because who buys graphic cards? Right. You know, it's all the gamers. Right. Or you would have companies like Razer or companies like Corsair. They wouldn't they wouldn't emerge. What would the smartphone be like without Angry Birds or Mafia Wars? Right. Or Candy Crush. Right. You know, it's in fact, the top grossing and top usage for mobile apps in the beginning was all driven by game. So I think that's why we believe that gaming is going to also drive mass adoption for blockchain. And I still believe in that. Right. But I think one of the things here that's happening is that the paradigm is different. And I think the paradigm for gamers in this ecosystem is value. Right. Actually, for the first time as a gamer, I can actually realize or at least maintain or have value in the time I put in. Right. You know, spending and playing games is proof of work and it's damn hard work. Right. We're spending time. We're playing. We're doing stuff. We're putting effort. But the only one who benefits is a game company itself. And now because of blockchain and crypto, we can actually find a mechanism, whether it's in the form of tokens or in the form of these NFTs where I can accrue or create or maintain value. Right. So that's exciting. But similar to the smartphone phase 10 years ago, people still needed to have sort of get comfortable with this until there's that breakout. I remember because we were doing console games as well and getting our console developers to make mobile games in 2010. It was like, why would I play on a smaller screen with limited functionality? Right. It's like, that's not interesting at all. And so we had an almost revolt from the developers. They're like, I'm not touching that. It's denigrating that I would be making games. You know, I'm making games for Sony PlayStation. And now you're asking me to make a game on this like shitty little Apple. Like, I'm not going to do that. Right. Of course, now they're probably all working on mobile games. But that was that was back then the same thing because because people didn't understand it. Right. And that's back then the paradigm for mobile games was around simplicity, bringing in people who could become good gamers with a swipe of a finger. Right. That was a real innovation, making making gaming sort of available for amateurs. Because until then, you needed to know how to use the keyboard and the mouse and the controller. And now I think the paradigm is value. Right. And we have to educate on that. Something I want to say there is also, you definitely saw the effects of the kind of snobbiness from game developers early on. Because, you know, we saw some batch of very poorly made triple A type of mobile games. I mean, there was Assassin's Creed. They actually tried to bring that over so early. It was a big failure because it tried to replicate what the games did on consoles. I guess 3D, it's the gameplay was kind of almost like Assassin's Creed. But the issue here was that the mature game devs didn't want to touch mobile because they're saying, oh, I'm doing, you know, PlayStation. It's awesome. We have all this tech here. Why touch Apple? And then the B team went on to make the games because otherwise they'd be without a job. And then it ended up being terrible games because people didn't pay attention to that. Right. People didn't. It was a B team making a game, but they weren't spending full effort on it. And I feel like that's almost the case with blockchain right now, where in terms of the big companies, they don't want to touch blockchain. Right. They're like, oh, you know, it's this blockchain. What's there for me tier? I mean, you see all the game cycle and hype all coming on with PlayStation 5. Oh, it's, you know, you got ray tracing. Oh, my God. And then and all this like fancy tech to make it all the graphics look amazing. But you don't see the A tier developers moving into blockchain. And, you know, I think that's that's good. That's that's expected for early tech. But what do you think would be the biggest push for big game devs to bring their A team, the top game into crypto? And I think that's probably the challenge we're looking for. Right. Well, I mean, I think, first of all, you know, when you think about the early mobile game, Davis, it's true that the A teams from the big studios didn't enter that space, partially because the studios didn't see the money in it. And it was also disruptive to their business model. That's why they didn't embrace it. But, you know, is is is Rovio a B team? You know, when they started it? I don't know. Actually, I think that they were actually for what they created. It was an A team effort because what they innovated on. Yes. And I think I need to fill that in. It's like there are many teams that are because that became A teams. But I'm talking about the big triple A studios, whether it's Epic or whether it's like the ones that already had, you know, the console game component. But obviously we have something like what was it? Yeah. Your Rovio. And also what's the guys who's the guys behind? Yeah. Supercell. They're A team. But then they. Yeah. But they weren't, you know, they weren't around prior to mobile. Right. They started off with mobile. So they became A teams from mobile. Right. So. Yeah. So. So. Maybe. But just to finish the teams that were building those actually came from gaming before. Right. So the Supercell team and the Rovio team from all ex digital chocolate guys. So they're going to talk about people who never touched games before. Actually, they knew their stuff. And I think the difference that's happening with the early, early blockchain games, you know, we're talking 2017, 2018 type of stuff. Right. Was that they were came from blockchain guys who never made games. So that's different. Right. But then. And so that's kind of like smartphone games, 2010. And then around or like more like 2009. And then 2010, 2011, you had the guys who were actually from the gaming industry and said, you know what? Mobile is really interesting. And I'm not going to get, you know, my my my game studio to do it. I quit and I'm going to enter that field. That was where that phase was. And I think that's the phase that is starting in the last 12 months. Right. And that's kind of what we're seeing now. So. So, you know, sandbox. Those guys are game developers for the last 10 years. Actually, longer than that. But from what you know. So. So they are people who know how to make games. But just like real games, you don't launch a game in three months. Right. I mean, many of those early crypto games was like, yeah, let's go three months. Here we go. Here's a great crypto game. And where's the game? Right. It takes a couple of years to make a really good game. And so I think the real results of the quality of what you're seeing is going to come out in the next six to 12 months. I really believe that we're going to get that adoption from the quality. Hopefully. Hopefully. Fingers crossed. I think so. I think I think so. I think like you're right in the sense that early on it was blockchain developers making games and then they were realizing, oh crap, making a game is really hard. It's a craft that people people hone for like 10, 20 years. Right. You know, all these studios, they actually have game developers that have been quite experienced. And you also understand this, too. If you look at even like something like League of Legends, their game designers didn't come out of nowhere. Right. Both IceFrog and Ginsu were big, big Dota game designers. Right. They worked on the original Dota for fun, for passion. And then they started respectively League of Legends and Dota 2. Right. So they they came from a background where they really understood gaming. And I think that's something that a lot of blockchain guys aren't used to. Where they don't know it. They just don't know it. They don't realize how much of a craft game design is. And I think that's probably the biggest problem with all this hype around blockchain gaming, where there's a ridiculous amount of expectations. You look at the whole DeFi space and people expect, you know, 10x, 100x moon or, you know, 100x growth in user base. But here it would actually take time for a game developer to understand or actually not game developer, a designer to understand, OK, how do you make the economics of a game work around trading? Because that's or trading or NFTs or make these elements work. And it's much easier said than done. And I think that's my biggest pet peeve with this whole crypto space where people look at all these examples. I talk like a nerd. I'm like, oh, just look at the Diablo 3 talk where they said how item trading completely destroyed their game. They're pretty much just blatantly said that and actually disabled their auction house. Right. Because trading just just killed their game. They just killed their core game loop. And people don't realize that they're like saying, oh, we should add trading to Hearthstone. I mean, there's a legit. That's also because Diablo was designed not to have that. It's an inflationary design. Right. It's a different loop. Right. And so I think that's where the difference is. I think what you have here, the example I like to give in this one is for, you know, crypto games was originally built by bankers. Right. So all the guys were trading in crypto. Imagine guys, some guys from like Morgan Stanley, like we should make a game. Right. So that's kind of that's how it started off. We like trading. We like money. Let's make a game because everyone loves trading and money. Right. Yeah, exactly. Right. That's exactly what we're seeing right now. Or have been seeing. But silently, but powerfully, I would say you've got a number of companies that are actually making games coming from games backgrounds. But where I think the part that has been harder from a talent standpoint is you have to find a gamer or game company or studio that has a financial ethos and a value system behind them that supports that. Right. It's the same idea between sort of paid games, which was the premium mobile to free to play freemium models. Right. The freemium business model was completely something that the you know, it wasn't just objection towards playing like, you know, going from console to mobile games. It was the objection of, wait, I can make a game. I can work on it for three or four years and then I sell it for 60 bucks. See how it goes per game. As opposed to this game is entirely free and you have to create a core game loop to entice them to play and buy these virtual assets and items. It's a it's a it's a very different challenging mode. And many developers didn't like that idea that they were basically creating freemium games. So it's a business model disruption that also changed it. Right. Yeah. And that's what we're seeing, too. And so that gap is small, just like the mobile game developers. You have a you have a you know, I would say it really became mainstream in terms of broader studios literally four or five years later in the mobile game space. But in between companies like, you know, Rovio became, you know, huge enterprises. And, you know, we saw Angry Birds plushies all over the world at that time. Yeah. So I think it's definitely a game model. And I think it's not as easy as like that's that's I think that's definitely my pet peeve where people who are traders are essentially us. Right. We're big traders. We love trading, obviously, because we deal with this stuff and we expect everyone else to do the same. It's a change. It's a transition in business model, which will take time to come. So I feel like this is a situation where and a lot of people need to understand that video games take years to make, too. So one of my biggest pet peeves were people like, oh, I don't Fortnite just make NFTs with their items like. OK, first of all, Fortnite items aren't tradable for a reason. That's part of their core monetization loop. Their monetization is on the fact that the items can't be traded and there's a purpose for that. So they can't just make an NFT, let people trade items that would just completely kill the revenue. And it's the wrong monetization model. But now we're moving to a point where we can have a better discussion. Sorry, I'm nerding out with Yat here. You know, there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of depth in this, which I think it takes time. And I think just zooming out a bit before we kind of lose our audience and people who don't play games that much. Now we see the growth of NFT space and we see this renewed interest in this space. Right. Do you think we're moving in the right direction, though? I mean, we've seen both art. We talked more a little bit more about the art side of things, about the rarity of things, about a little bit less about gaming. Do you think that's the right direction? Do you think we need to push it back straight towards gaming? No, I think it all adds to the conversation. Right. One of the things that we found that when we did Rev and we did Sand, you know, Sand was selling land and doing quite well. But, you know, we had thousands of people playing it. Right. Like it was not talking about typical crypto gaming numbers. 3000 DRU. Wow. Right. It's like in the gaming world, it's like, you know, in our traditional games, we have 15 million users. Right. And that's like we're considered average. OK. So imagine 15 million gamers going on crypto suddenly, you know, tomorrow or overnight. It's completely I don't I don't know which network could handle it. But anyway, that aside. Right. I think I think when we when we issued the token, Sand ended up getting 120,000 owners of the Sand token. And then they and that was a language they understood. Right. Like, oh, I can have a fungible token that can be traded. But why? Right. So it forced them to, you know, beyond the hype to study. Well, what's the utility for Sand? Why is that exciting? Oh, there's NFTs. What's an NFT? You can buy land. You can develop on that. Oh, gaming economy. How does that work? Right. So in the process of listing a token, we ended up educating and bringing into the fold of the community, 120,000 people, which would have never otherwise entered that. Right. So so it's about bridging this. Right. And I think the token is effectively like a virtual currency of any game that's out there, but now has a sort of financial element. And, you know, right now, when you see all this DeFi movement, right, it has always been about, you know, really, you know, with all the food groups and everything, it's it's really been about the fun and gamification of finance. But I think there's a broader, larger global opportunity, which is around actually bringing finance to games. And I think that's what I'm really excited about, because, you know, we learn a lot through games today. Right. Our children do that as well. But actually, one of the main things we don't learn in school is finance. In fact, most people learn about finance when they get in debt, when they go to college, they sign up a loan and they get a credit card. And then they are surprised. What is 20 percent or 30 percent APR? The next thing they know, they're like, shit, I've got like debt up the wazoo because I don't know how to repay that. And nobody taught me how to do financial planning because, you know, it's a dirty thing or I get an allowance. It's all nothing is financial. Right. Why should we not actually play games that have value in economic systems right from the beginning? Because that is how the world works. You know, how much better would the world be if, you know, everyone had basic financial understanding by the time they went to college? Right. I think I think we would all have a completely different ecosystem. We would have more sophisticated financial products, but we would have also more savvy economics out there because you wouldn't have basically stupid investing because they don't know how to do that. Right. So I think that's a big opportunity there. And gaming is mainstream. Right. TV and radio or newspapers were one avenue of bringing knowledge to people. But now it's games and we can simulate that. And financial education is. That's actually a very fun way to think about it. Right. For sure. Like, you know, I've been through the education system. They don't teach you anything about finance. In fact, most of finance I got through either video games because I was playing World of Warcraft and I was actually really good at the economic side of it. Or I got from crypto because crypto is brutal. Right. You make one wrong mistake in crypto, you lose like 95 percent of your money overnight. And that's happened to a lot of people. And then that's when you have to learn, OK, how to do risk management properly. That's how you learn when you have to. So that's a very interesting thought. But but the counter argument here is now when you have financial assets, real financial assets in video games. Right. Then doesn't that introduce people under 18 to potentially gambling as well? Well, I mean, I think is it is it gambling when people are trading baseball cards or is it gambling when people are doing collections? I mean, I understand that there's a fine line between that. Right. I think the area that excites us is about bringing mass adoption and financial education and real value into into gaming through this means that people can ultimately play with like $10 or $5. Right. And, you know, when you lose $10 and it's 95 percent of your value, you're like, oh, my goodness, I lost 95 percent value. But it's $10. Right. It's like it's like when people play Monopoly and they end up using or play Mahjong or play play card games. It's play money. Right. But it's also education and you get smarter for it over time. Where it becomes painful is when you actually have, you know, more significant savings. And then you start sort of delving into the financial world, which is, by the way, what most people do, because when they actually get a paycheck, they actually have more money. And then they start putting money into some stock they don't understand. And then, oh, shit, I lost everything. You know, that it's a far more painful lesson than doing it when you're a child and when you're educated. And I think we see that with the NFT space, too. Right. So we see baseball cards moving on to the NFT space. We saw Wax doing that with Garbage Pail Kids. We saw kind of more of the artsy collecting side. So are you doing anything with the artsy collecting side? What are you doing? You know, how are you using these NFTs right now in your projects? I think so for one of the we definitely are moving very harsh, harsh, harsh, harsh, very, very aggressively into the into the collectible space, because we think, you know, collectibles and art and so on. That's like a three hundred seventy billion dollar market. Right. I mean, our Formula One car that we sold last year, the first one, the one one one sold for four hundred fifteen each. Right. And it's just like a lot of money for a virtual car. But who would pay for that? Like who who who in the right mind would buy that? Like that's insane. Right. This is like. Well, well, I mean, I don't know. Like, do you consider what's happening in the NFT space now sort of sensible or not? But I'll get to that point first, because, you know, a Picasso, you know, is worth tens of millions of dollars. Why is it worth tens of millions of dollars? And is it worth tens of millions of dollars to, you know, 10 million people? Or is it worth tens of millions of dollars really to an exclusive group of people who care about the value of provenance of this? And this is where non fungibles is really exciting. Right. Because non fungibles is a way to create personality and is a way to create individuality on objects that we can treasure through history, through moments, through whichever. Right. It's like it's like wedding rings. Right. You know, if I pass a wedding ring from my great grandmother, you know, within my particular family, it's priceless. But, you know, the silver that it's made of is not worth much at all. If I give that to someone else, I melt it down, it's worth nothing. But the actual ring itself is priceless within that. Right. And those memories are attached to it. That's how value is generated. That's why stamps are worth that much. That's why I like first edition baseball cards, you know, from Babe Ruth or something are worth millions of dollars. Right. But it's not worth millions of dollars because you have, you know, an active fungible trading market for it where millions of people will bid for it. It's valuable because maybe only 30 or 40 people who are collectors value that. And then it expands beyond that. Right. I mean, that's how Christie's and Sotheby's and the auction markets auction markets work. Right. So there's also another episode. You bring up the art episode. And I think I think this is one of the biggest debates because I was very pessimistic about this. I'm a very real person. Right. I feel like I'm like I'm grounded. I'm like, OK, maybe the first time you sell a car, maybe you can proxy bit yourself. This happens both in in art and probably in crypto. Right. Or you can sell an art. I don't believe that all these things are being sold for this amount of money. Right. Because many are not. Right. So only some have high prices, but many are sold generally for you could say more reasonable prices. But there's usually reasons behind it. Yeah, because there's a digital item. Right. And the thing is, like, what's what what differs this item from just, say, a simple JPEG I put on my phone? Right. Like, let's say you have a Picasso. At least there's brushstrokes on it. You know, at least at least I know that, you know, this is this piece of art is appreciable by people on my wall. I can put it on my wall. I'm like, yo, guys, check out my Picasso. You know, that's great. It's social. It's social. But an image on your phone, you're like, yo, guys, check out, check out my image of a Picasso on my phone. This is so cool. I spent like thirty thousand dollars on it. And so that doesn't you say that. Yeah, it doesn't work. Right. That the social elements completely lost. If it's a pure image, then it doesn't have that value because, of course, everyone can just replicate it. But the point is that if you know that it's certified original within a community that values it, it becomes valuable as a result. It's like if I have a Picasso in my home, how many people can actually really determine whether it's real or not? Right. But amongst those who know that it's real, it's like, whoa, this is like super cool. This is like fantastic. Right. But for most of them who don't understand anything about it, it's just another image. Right. So, again, it's not meant to be sort of necessarily for something that's especially with art. Right. Something that's appealing to every single person, like modern art. Right. The way that it sells. Most people look at it and say, I don't really understand what's so great about it. Right. Our creative director, Kevin Abosh, you know, he sold a photo of a potato for a million US dollars famously. And and and the crypto rose was also very, very, very, very valuable. It's part of the story. It's the history. It's the background. Right. In the case of a Formula One car, it's the one one one. It's the very first car ever that's officially Formula One minted on the blockchain. Is that worth ten dollars or is that worth one hundred thousand dollars? Don't know. But what you do know is that it's a very first car. And because it's blockchain, there can never be another number one car. Right. It's like the first edition certifiable that way. Now, the other sort of point I would make is that we are more and more living in metaverses or basically in virtual universes. Right. So the recognition of that becomes more important to us in the past. You know, the real world was important. And so, you know, I would carry a real, you know, maybe, you know, our parents generation might be sort of wanting to wear Rolex, for instance. And some people bought fake Rolexes. Right. But the person who bought the fake Rolex, he aspires to buy a real Rolex. Right. He doesn't say, hey, I have a fake Rolex. That's great. I'm smarter than you. Most of the time they're like, I wish I had a real Rolex, but I'm buying a fake one because I can sort of at least say that I'm this or I'm that. Right. And with blockchain, that certification is instant. So someone can take a copy of the one one one, but everyone in that social crowd, which is everyone who has a wallet or anyone who knows crypto is going to say that's fake. Right. Is that cool? Or do you start looking like a bit of a, you know, a bit of a loser because you want to pretend you're not. But you spend so much money on something you cannot. Like, I guess I guess it's just like for me, it's the absurdity of the amounts. Right. For me, like I would say, yo, look, you know, you collect the card. I mean, in fact, I, I don't want to be a hypocrite here because I issued my own NFTs at the start of this NFT thing. Like all the way back in 2018, 2019, I created a bunch of entities just for fun to give it out for free. Right. Like for me, that's, that makes more sense. I'm like, I'm giving these things out for free. They're like collectible box mining items. I got a pirate box mining. I got a, another collectible cards. These are collectibles. Sure. But I like, I never aspire to sell something like that. Even like one, one, one box mining. Number one issue. I never said, okay, I wanted to sell it for millions of dollars because I don't think it's worth millions of dollars. I think like that's because that's because you didn't think it was millions of dollars and that's okay. Right. But maybe someone else thought it was worth a lot. I mean, that's how it works. Okay. Okay. But, but like, I think the biggest struggle for me is like, okay, for me, it's like the functionality. Like if, if one, one, one car is like, say 50 times faster than other, every other car. And I can race this car and be race with this car and be every other player that's worth money. Cause I, you know, uh, my past history was with, um, gaming, right? So my, this is why I connect very well with Yad is where, where I designed a monetization of video games. And it was very clear that players didn't want to just be collectors, right? People paid money to have an advantage in video games. So not only were the collectible items, and this is something you see in a cross pay to win games, right? It's very, you know, that's, it's pretty much all mobile games right now where players not only pay for an additional costume, especially in the Asian markets, you pay for more power. So this costume, like in Chinese games, skins equals the power in Western games, not as much. I mean, you buy a skin in Fortnite, you can show off to your friends. That's great. But in China, Chinese games and in Asian games, you buy a skin, that skin is going to give you stats. It's going to make you faster. It's going to make you stronger. It's going to make you better. Then you can trash all your other people. And I think that was expected in the Asian market. And this is something that I feel like, um, if sure, if I was spending extra money on buying that car, if I'm very involved in that video game and I want that extra speed, but how do you kind of, okay. Hey, are you giving power for the extra car? And B, how do you justify value if there is no stats attached to it? Okay. So first of all, uh, are the, in this case, it was an apex class car and the apex class cars do have more power. However, they're not completely sort of OP as it were. Right. Because I think one of the things that when it comes to game design is that if you create a completely play to win environment, then you have, uh, it's really difficult, right? People don't feel like it. Yeah. It just kills the game. So, so that doesn't really work. Right. But what you see, uh, with that is, is that, uh, you know, the, the models that can emerge from that is, is that, you know, maybe you can have better drivers, you can rent out the car, someone else can use it. But someone with more skill in the game can actually, uh, sort of maybe beat you as well. Right. So it's not just about the power of the car. There is a skill element involved as well, but you have certain advantages, but it's not sort of the complete OP kill, right? Type of, type of advantages. So that's from the apex, apex, uh, class cars. Um, now, but why would I, why would I own this? Well, I mean, you know, if you recall counter-strike, right, which is, you know, has a very large skin trading business. Um, and some of those skins, uh, sold for 50 to $60,000. That's not even on blockchain. It's not even permanent. Right. Um, why would you pay that kind of money for a skin? Well, it's because I'm out there killing people with my favorite skin and people get to see that. And within that community, it became valuable because they knew the guy with that skin is out there. And what was interesting there is other creators would make skins and sell them. And then of course they would say, I only make 10 or 20 of them. But again, it's within that counter-strike universe. In fact, that's how wax with op skins started, right? That's where they're like, hold on. You know, we were trading, you know, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in these skins. Actually, maybe there's something there with blockchain. And that was really the beginning of how wax started, right? Uh, so, so the gaming industry had this already. I mean, second life, right? It's GDP is, uh, two, $200 million plus, right? Eve online. I mean, for those who know the gaming, it's implied GDP is like $60 million. People trading digital assets, right? I think people forget that, uh, in the gaming industry, when you look at the BNB Parabas atelier report, you know, they say a hundred billion dollars was spent on these virtual goods, uh, last year. Uh, and, and so people are buying them. They're already valuing them. You just go, go on eBay. People are selling Pokemon accounts, selling virtual gold, World of Warcraft. In 2006, people are, you know, farming and mining that type of stuff. It was probably maybe the earliest form of proof of work. Why would they do that? It's not just the utility, right? It's, it's to show off. It's, it's what we see in the real world. And I think the shift here that's interesting is the value shift, right? Which is that, you know, we, we, from a certain generation, we look at the things in the real world, like where I live, when my friends come to my house, what do they see? That kind of stuff. But we're now also in a more virtual element. Like for instance, you know, my kids, my daughter, she doesn't really care about her virtual appearance. I mean, sorry, her physical appearance, but she cares about her virtual appearance. She cares about how many followers she has on Instagram. She cares about, you know, what people say on that, but she doesn't necessarily want to go hang out in sort of the, the next coolest sort of, you know, sort of a bar or whatever to be seen, to be recognized by, you know, paparazzi or something. It's just more on the virtual side. And so the virtual sort of credibility has risen tremendously because, and that's the value that comes from that. We're living in slightly different times here. And I think the exciting part is, is that gamers already spend that kind of money, right? This is not a, this is not a case of why would you spend that? Right. And the other thing is, as you well know, gaming is a whale market as well, right? I mean, you know, what are people buying in Fortnite? Skins, right? They're not buying anything around utility. They're buying skins. And I think we can probably imagine if Fortnite, and they're probably not going to do it. If Fortnite was offering a skin trading market with actual scarcity attached to it, that much like Counter-Strike, the skins themselves would accrue an increase in value because of who made it, what happened to it. And this is where the value of non-fungible tokens becomes exciting because your history and your record is attached to it, right? If I use the pickaxe and I climb down Everest with that run, right? Then that pickaxe is super valuable. If I buy a cup from Ikea, it's not valuable. But if I get, you know, Taylor Swift to autograph it, it instantly increases in value, right? And I think I definitely agree. I think like, I think there's certain people who get very emotionally attached to stuff. Like, I think it's harder for me to understand because I'm not emotionally attached to items. This is the worst part about me as a person, right? So when I play Diablo 3, I will get these epic weapons, right? You get these really great weapons. And just before I sleep, I will sell that weapon because I know that the weapon inflation is going up. There's a power creep. More and more powerful weapons are being found. So this weapon might be worth $30 a day. But when I wake up, it's going to drop in price, right? The dumpamentals are there. So every day before I slept, when I was playing Diablo 3, I would dump my item. Even though I might have beat the game with it, I might have thrown sentimental attached to my weapon. I'm like, screw this. I'm going to dump that on the auction house. Someone else, you go play with it. You go buy it. Have fun. And tomorrow when I wake up, I have $30, right? I got $30. I got $30 of real money, right? And I'll just buy them the better item and that's it, right? So I think that there's a difference there. I think there, and I feel like there's- But I think just on that point, I think that's a very valuable point here because that's why the auction house failed because it was inflationary in its design, right? Because people knew- Well, not just that. Yeah, not just that, but it became the core loop of the game. And I think this is one thing that also is a problem in crypto. I think a lot of people think that trading is fun. We think it's fun. But Blizzard realized that once it became a core loop for Diablo, it killed the game because now the most optimal way to play Diablo 3, and I experienced this myself, is to play the auction house. You sit there. You go medieval auction house. You play the game. Done. Done. Now you're the best person at Diablo. Why? Because you're fucking rich, right? Right. So this is a situation where I feel like this is the biggest challenge to a trading market or transactional market or Fortnite having this, where if you short circuit the game and make it about trading, because that's one of the biggest powers there. Once trading becomes a core pillar of the game, you short circuit the game, people stop going out to farm monsters. They're like, it's not efficient. I don't want to kill monsters. I just want to play auction house. And then that kills the entire game because auction house isn't fun for most people. Not for most people, but for many people. People play games to kill monsters, right? That's the whole point of Diablo. I think there's two parts, right? One of them is as a player, right? You can sort of farm and there's an income aspect of it. We think that's exciting because there's other people who might buy in an auction house in a place. I think if there's scarcity involved, also you might be less likely to sell because you think like, well, maybe this could be more valuable or I can still use it for a while. So that's a trading element. But to your point about sort of, you know, there's a danger, not certainly for some games, that the auction house or the trading element becomes the main loop of the game. I think to me, that is both a positive actually and a negative. But the positive side is that to me, it opens up a new type of gameplay that hasn't existed before. And, you know, whether this is going to be a game system that's going to completely change the world or whether it's the kind of game that doesn't exist today because it wasn't possible before. It becomes essentially a sort of large niche like strategy games, right? Strategy games is, you know, has hundreds of millions of gamers, right? Like Tower Defense, that type of game. It's not for people who play Fortnite or PUBG, but it's certainly for a certain sort of group of people who love strategy games. That's a new industry, for instance, right? You have new genres emerge from it. You know, like, you know, Match 3 is a new genre that was emerged because of the element of the smartphone. Basically using the finger and swiping those type of mechanisms essentially became really a genre of its own because of smartphone. And so the question here is, will sort of true digital ownership through these non-fungible tokens and sort of the real sort of property rights for gamers, will this become a Candy Crush style new genre that will sort of get a lot of people excited? Or will it be like strategy gamers where maybe only hundreds of millions of people will say that's fun, right? From a global perspective, right? So we think we... So because remember, we're talking about a space that is, you know, fascinatingly fast in terms of NFTs. It's like a $300 million market right now in terms of people trading these assets and items in various ecosystems. You know, driven by 150,000 people. It's a whale market for sure. It is. Absolutely. But do we think... What do you think this market will be like if there's only a million of them or 5 million or 10 million? Like, we're still talking small numbers here, right? So and I think sometimes when people talk about, oh, but, you know, 2.6 billion gamers, they're not going to all play. That's true. They might not. But what if you get 5% of them to play or 10% or, hey, 1%, right? That to me is already a large number, right? And, you know, many of the big game companies out there, you know, they're not making another Fortnite, right? But they're the leaders in strategy games or they're leaders in match three or they're leaders in simulation games. And those already are billion-dollar enterprises by themselves, right? So I think it's exciting because it's either a brand-new genre that's going to be a big niche or it's going to potentially take over the entire gaming industry because everyone wants true digital ownership. And because we're early, both are, you know, both are avenues you can ride for the time being. I think so. And I think there's a few great discussion points brought up here. And I think it's like, I think it's one of the most deeper discussions here because obviously, Yacht has been in a space for such a long time and we've seen it all, right? And I think I've seen quite a lot of the developments as well. And, you know, there's a certain expectation sometimes, I think, in crypto games that we're going to immediately get mass adoption, billions of gamers coming in. And I think it's much harder than we originally thought it would be. That's at least for me. Anyway, sorry. I thought. No, that's true, though. And I think one of the things that we're now doing is, you know, with our experiences with Sand and Rev, is that we're also looking to bring in the sort of crypto community into the gaming and NFT space because there's so few of them, right? So if you think about what's the sort of lower hanging fruit, is it to bring people who don't know anything about crypto into crypto gaming? Or is it about people who already at least have a wallet and are sort of into crypto, into gaming? And I think there's a shorter term, lower hanging fruit to go after those guys. And we see this with our reptiles. So make crypto people into gamers. That's your shortage. Yeah. And even as a percentile, because even if we manage to get like 10% of the people who have a wallet into gaming, that's 4 million or 5 million people. I mean, you know, that's not a big number, right? And I'm going to guess that many of them already play some games or another like yourself. So you have an awareness of it. You may not necessarily be playing it. But if I come to you and say, hey, there's a game in sort of in that incorporates these elements of defying crypto, for instance, you might go interesting, right? Like for you, at least you'll make that match. And I don't think you are necessarily even a small minority. You might actually be much bigger as a number since we're all quite digital. Yeah, I think so. And I think something that's kind of interesting here. So I was just going to say. So I think that's an interesting approach where you kind of convert those people that are already in crypto. into gaming. So you're tackling that. You're introducing that. And I think that's something that's easy to do with gaming, especially if the game is easy to understand. I think that's the power of Candy Crush. I think it was very underestimated that it targeted. It was very palatable for everyone. So whether you're a six-year-old granny trying to play that or you're like a 15-year-old kid trying to play it. At the start, the swiping was very addictive, right? I think we shouldn't forget that. And it's like the game had a lot of very positive rewards that made it pick up. So being able to get a game into the crypto crowd, and something we know about the crypto crowd is obviously that people are ridiculously rich. So we just have a few comments up there. We're just like, oh, the blue wifey made a NFT for himself and then sold it for 15 ETH. Right? Like, we're selling stuff for ETH as if it's dollars at this current point where people have, you know, so much ETH. They just spend, oh, yeah, it's just 10 ETH right there. Just like throw that down. It's like spare pocket change for me. And I think that's also true. And I think that's a growing market, surprisingly. And I think that's something that's new and starting out. I think it's good. Just maybe quickly to interject there, because, you know, if you think about how did the art market develop? Right? Like in the Renaissance, for instance, it was the patrons, you know, the Medici, the rich guys who said, I wanted to, you know, get Michelangelo to basically draw this amazing thing. Right? And actually, because they had so much money, because they were essentially the whales of their time. Right? They ended up basically sponsoring the arts for their own personal pleasure. And it created an artistic boom that was the Renaissance where people were sponsored to do this and then created a new innovation industry because the players got in because of the money. So that's what we have today. Right? People got rich because they maybe bet on ETH or Bitcoin or whatever currencies early on. And now they're sitting on this and they believe in the long term. And, you know, they've got disposable income and they get pleasure from that. You know, I mean, why do people drink wine? Honestly, I mean, it's like, you know, it may taste good, but is it really worth as much as that they're paying for? It's great. Right? I mean, it's so that's the thing. Right? It's you need the wealthy patrons in every ecosystem to grow a culture and innovation. And that's what this is. What NFTs is a form of culture where the blue Kirby is worth 15 ETH or not. Don't know. But the person who sold it is like, wait, this is great. I should make more. Right? And it inspires other people to say, maybe I should do that too. And there you go. I think so. I think that's very interesting. And we thought we got someone bring up meme as well. I think meme was a prime example of like one of the biggest NFT hypes, like it shot up in value because people were surprisingly buying just gifs of like animated gifs of like pineapples or something like that. I saw the art. I mean, I like the art. Okay. I appreciate the art. I'm not the biggest art critic. You guys probably know that, you know, like I'm not an artist myself. It's very clear. I want to appreciate it, but I don't want to appreciate it with my ETH. You know, that's that's that's the difference. But everyone is different. And I think there is a class of patrons out there. You know, thank you. Thank you. Arigato gozaimasu. You know, thank you for for for for sponsoring this art, making this art world a bit bigger. But yeah, I think I think it's something to wrap your head around. And I think it's like right now there's a lot of hype. So I feel like there is a potential lot of greed play as well. People think they can flip this. But who knows? Right. The problem with something like this, where you want to do a quick flip, is that you might end up it's a greater fool theory. Right. You want to sell it to someone else that will will pay more for it and think that they can sell it off for someone else until I tell at the end of the day, they can't sell it off. And this entire market just crashes. Right. So it's the epicenter of the greater fool theory. So, but, you know, I mean, I think on that part is that you while you while there is an element of that which would feel unhealthy, you do need that to grow the market. Right. I mean, if it wasn't for the dotcom boom, you probably would have, you know, many more years later where the Internet, at least in beginnings of the Internet, will be built the way that it did. And, you know, if it wasn't for, you know, the ICOs craze in 2017, early 2018, then many of the products that you're seeing today in blockchain wouldn't have been funded the way that it did. So so it's true, of course. Right. There's a lot of rubbish out there and one needs to be discerning. On the other hand, it is the money that has gone to these valid projects that are basically pushing the industry forward. That's been true for, you know, I think, you know, for for any for any industry as it as it as it goes through that period. I mean, video games went through that as well. I mean, the first boom of Atari, you know, before before the whole ET thing. Right. It's the same thing. You know, gaming gaming has gone through those cycles time and time again as well, where it's sort of the boom bust. But every time it comes out of the bust, actually, it ends up being a little bigger and a little smarter. So I think that's that's that's important here. I. Yeah. Cool. I think so. I think so. I think I think that's a good way to put it. I mean, whether or not I want to be involved, that's my personal opinion. And I think there's a lot of discussion here. And I think this is one of the most productive discussions. I think a lot of people are commenting on a live chat to this is actually cool. And I think I really appreciate this. Yeah. Cause like something that I went pretty hard on you on is I've always played the devil's advocate. Right. I like that. I'm very good. I love the devil's advocate. You know, sometimes I go and, you know, push, push up a few buttons where I think it's good. And, and there was a discussion earlier about God's Unchained as well. I think that was one of the biggest failures in the crypto space to where it was a clear example. When it was one of my biggest pet peeves where I'm like, they pitched me this project and it was just clear that it wouldn't work from day one. It was like, it was trading card game, but Blizzard made it non trading for a reason. And then they said, Oh, let's just copy Blizzard and then made it a trading card game. And then follow your monetization is completely dead. Right. You just killed any ability for you to promote and advertise a game. And then they ended up having like what, 10 daily active users instead of 10 million daily active users. Cause they didn't have any advertising money left after that. So it was a clear example of just like, just dumb asses trying to, to, to farm a, um, an idea and to, to, so, I mean, I'm pretty negative on that, but let's, I think one thing that, you know, if you look at God's Unchained, I think they did build out this initial community. And, you know, we, while we understand that all projects need to have work, they, they, they were one of the pioneers in the space. Right. And to push forward the narrative and, uh, you know, they did raise a good, good bunch of money. Yeah. But I would say more importantly, the lessons they had, right. I think it's the lessons they had also helped us and the other industry people. So it was clear. These lessons should not have been at least this experiment, like the, the, the, the biggest, the beauty of game design is we can learn from mistakes. And this was a clear example where Blizzard chose not to do something like they definitely play magic together. They definitely realized that it's a trading card game. Right. And then made a very conscious decision to create a game that, that has no trading. Like this was a conscious decision. And I think this was a lesson that we didn't need to spend money learning. Right. Well, I think it, but it goes back to, it goes back to the thing of sort of, if you think about what was the foundation of the team initially, right. And then the foundation of a team initially were not people that came from the games industry. Right. Um, so, so, so. Punch them in the face. Fuck you idiot. Idiot. Idiot. You know, like, you know, learn gaming dumbass. Like, well, at least watch a blizzard talk. Okay. Cause they, they're pretty transparent on everything. Like they, they tell you, but I think I can justify it that way. They didn't have the experience, but I feel like. Like they're a little bit too lazy. I think there was two ways for them to approach it. Right. They, they copied a game and said, we're going to bring trading to it. But the problem is the game already exists. All right. So they need to be 10 times better or have a novel kind of mechanism there to entice people to come over. And trading just isn't enough because trading kills your monetization and your, your ability to advertise your game. And I think that was a very clear example where this business strategy, you can spot the mistake from a model away. And I don't think we should have even spent time or effort trying to learn this lesson when this is a clear, like, you know, from square one, I think like why waste investors money on this? Yeah. I think one of the things that, that, you know, one can sort of expect, like what we experienced with sandbox, for instance, is that, you know, we don't spend a lot of money on advertising on sandbox. But because you have people who have invested, interested in it now, they become your marketeers, right? Because the community has a stake in its success, right? And you could say the same could have been true and might still be true for Gods Unchained because they have a stake in its success too. The only thing is the designing of that. How does it, how does a design loop create that from a game that has an economic and value principle from day one? And I think when we think about games on blockchain, because it's value, we always have to ask the question as to what makes this experience valuable or what makes this experience meaningful for the player, right? Which is why we introduced sort of the sort of staking slash rental model in Formula One Delta type, which is probably the only NFT that you can stake for a token, right? Which is essentially a leasing model. And it's supposed to be a way to create that narrative for people who are in crypto to understand the gaming potential as well, right? Do you want to talk a little bit about what Delta Time is? Because I think that my audience, I'm pretty sure, not sure. I'm not sure if everyone's following up on this. Do I just give a little basic intro of what Delta Time is and what you guys are trying to build? So, I mean, everyone Delta Time, you see the track in the back, but you've got some cool racing cars, is the official Formula One. And with the REV token as well, we have MotoGP as well, sort of a blockchain game. And, you know, it's not just using the official titles in itself. The REV token is actually going to be is a token for all motorsports related digital entertainment with Formula One and MotoGP as a start. And what we decided to do was to sort of mirror a racing and simulation type game that would have real economic values behind them. And we decided to work with Formula One because most Formula One people tend to have a lot of money and understand money. Right. So that's so it's an easier, easier match from a from a broader adoption. The design in itself, other than racing and creating parts, is based on sort of a collectible element as well. So collection and trading is a key part of that loop. To your earlier point, you know, maybe that is the game. Well, for F1 Delta Time, that was a big part of it. Right. And one one way that we initiated to sort of scarcity where we don't issue like millions of cards, which maybe many of these other games had some trouble because, you know, because they were running out of money. Maybe they started selling more of these NFTs and suddenly became inflationary. We set these limits. So, for instance, when we sold the crates, we have a we gave it a limited period of time. You know, I think it was less than two weeks to buy these crates of different categories. And then what happened was is that when people would buy the crates, any crate that wasn't sold after that cutoff date, basically would get burned. Right. So essentially, the community gets to decide, you know, what is the scarcity for that edition that goes out there? And what was interesting is, is that people started buying certain categories, trading them around. And and really the volume, the market became self-sustainable because the community got to decide what it could stomach. Right. Which is an issue with many other games, including crypto games. If they just flood the market out there, then they have no value and other people will not value them as well. And with sand, with land, we see when we sell land, it sells out after 10 or 20 minutes. But we also make sure that we don't flood the market with that. So that's the economic aspect. Now, from a design standpoint, you can win Rev, right? And you can you can you can sort of win them. You can spend Rev to buy these assets, but you can also win with Rev. So you have a time trial, which is essentially like a management simulation element. You have actually today we'll have a gameplay video coming out in the afternoon showing the actual racing sort of sort of trial racing games, which was which looks pretty cool that you can screen in the back as an indication of that, where you can race for skill and you can play against other people and win some Rev. But then we have the other element where you can essentially stake your car. And the parallel for staking your car is actually you're renting the car to another player so he can earn from using the car. And once you stake the car, you can no longer sell it. Right. And you can no longer you can you can no longer race it or time trial it. But you can start earning passive income. It goes back into the pool that other people can then rent to use to win in the racing pool. So it's a nice little loop where, you know, you have the token that's in circulation and the usage is out there and you can effectively we've created kind of a solution to sort of NFT double spent. You have an NFT and you have to choose which way to use it. And what's fascinating now is that, you know, because the crates themselves or ERC 20s, people ended up buying these crates. And, you know, we have probably like hundreds of crates in the marketplace right now where people are sort of just waiting on them for other people to open because they because it has value because we're no longer issuing any more 2019 cars. Even ourselves, we had to buy cars from the market as prizes. And what's happened is, is that you'll see when you go on like OpenSea, you'll see, you know, a car that, you know, the Epic cars, which used to go for about a one ETH. They're now averaging three ETH, right? Right. Because not just because of the staking potential, but because there's not that many left out there. But the value principle is how do we maintain, protect and create value for the players, which in a normal game, to your point, like Hearthstone, for instance, is not the case. Right. This is not about, you know, maintaining value. Right. And there's a few companies out there that think about this. Right. We think about this. Sandbox obviously thinks about this. Axie Infinity thinks about this. Right. So the companies that do well in the crypto gaming world are the ones who really think about value in games. Whereas the ones who think of it more as a gimmick or as a add on, it's not going to do well because to your point, they haven't designed value into the base economics of the gameplay. Yeah. I think that's that's quite key here. And this is one of the when we sort of saw the first iteration of video games, they just copied the economic model. They copied the whole inflationary model and said, OK, let's make it with NFTs. But obviously the NFTs will just dive in value. And we saw that with quite a few games, too. So whether it's God and Chain, Steemit, Monsters, even CryptoKitties, there was a constant flux of new kitties being created. So your old kitties got less and less valuable. So having value designed early in the game, I think is one of the core things. I think this is my biggest pet peeve. It has to be designed from a game, from a core perspective of value retention. And you have to have designers thinking around that. So then this gives a reason for items to be valuable and to be tradable and for this whole economy to work. So I think that's kind of interesting. So you guys have a racing game and the cars that are in this game, they're limited in supply. So so do you have a situation where let's say if you have a sudden influx of people coming into this game, they all want cars. OK, but now the car supply is limited. How do you deal with that? Well, then so you can maybe not buy the car, but you can rent the car. Right. Right. Through the staking approach, what happens is that you rent the car back into the pool. Right. And then we can rent the cars out. So we would make income from the use of the car. But the and the owner of the car would get obviously his rental related income from that. And and they can still play the game and they can still win or participate or have fun. Right. They just don't own the car, which is, by the way, the real world. Right. For gaming. For most games, you don't know anything. Then you go to this example of Hertz, right? You go to Hertz in Europe and all the cars are out. You know, they're doing a rental company. They have a limited amount of cars. OK, you're out of cars. Sorry. You know, how do you deal with that? This player comes in. I want to race. Oh, shit. Sorry, Hertz. So Hertz are like, yo, hey, sorry, you don't have cars for you. Fuck off. Well, I'm sorry. Rental prices go up. I mean, that's and maybe. So what happens is that for the 2019 edition, that's it. Right. It's like we can't make more. But for 2020. Right. Which is a different set. Right. But again, the community of players get to buy that. Right. But the 2020 set is still inflationary. Then are you saying, OK, now we can issue new cars. They're just in a different package. They're the 2020 set now. No, because you can't race in the same environment. Oh, OK. OK. OK. So that's a limitation. So because now. But the part where I think it becomes really interesting is can these cars have utility outside of our games? That's what I want to do. Right. Because I see NFTs like free trade. Right. Not just fungibility of the token. But in this case, non fungibles that can travel to other game environments. So they already had a few cases where people were offering the crates or the cars as components in another game. So I can take my game into another world. Right. And would that utility be interesting? And in fact, I think that success for the owners of a car would be that if the car can be used in 10 different worlds or 20 different worlds. Right. Yeah. I think that's the other thing, right? The multiverse idea where now because it's decentralized, you can use it in other games. And I think that's a whole new discussion for another time. I feel like that is way more complicated because why if I can if I'm a game deviant developer, I'm making it. Why should I let you have the monetization or bring items into my game? Right. Like from a game design perspective, money needs to exchange hands. Otherwise, I need to hire artists to draw a version of your car in my game to fit my artistic style that incurs costs. And why would I want to do that for free? I mean, essentially, if you let someone else's car come over here, it kills my monetization. Right. So I feel like that's. Yes. I mean, there's a big discussion there. I feel to me just broadly, I feel that allowing that interoperability and trading of these assets into other worlds is what's limiting to the game industry. Just briefly put, I think our game industry, even though it's one hundred fifty billion dollars, it's bigger than sort of, you know, so it's huge. Right. However, it's still limited because just think about something like League of Legends. Right. It's the NBA. It's the sport of basketball and it's ESPN all in one. OK, so which which which is. It's actually crazy if you think about it. Right. I mean, imagine if this were true today for, you know, I don't know, NBA where they were everything all in one. And in fact, they were, you know, if I wanted to buy and use shoes inside NBA, I have to buy NBA shoes. I can't use Nike or Puma or Adidas. It's the market shrinks. Right. It's a much smaller market. It may seem big today. But what happens if you open it up and create a real open economy? You know, it will be bigger. And our assumption is that by doing so, it's not going to be just 10 percent bigger, but it's going to be bigger by the order of like factors. So it turns 150 billion dollar industry into a multi trillion dollar industry because you have so many more participants and so much more creativity. We can't have a Nike of games. We can't have an Adidas or Puma of games because that system doesn't exist because you cannot move objects around. When you have that, we'll have a new sort of economic revolution sort of because of that. That's what we believe. That's pretty cool, man. That's that's actually a very, very interesting idea. And I think I think that's that's definitely a conversation for another time. I think I'm expanding that ecosystem. And I think that's very visionary in a way as well. I think it's like thinking beyond how the current market forces work. I think and I think this is the balance, right? There are so many lessons from the current economic system. And that's why I was like very adamant about Gods Unchained having screwed up the monetization from the get go. Now, because their game was just too similar to to Hearthstone. And at the same time, they cut down Hearthstone's monetization. But what I think your angle that you're looking at is building a new economy on top of that and being able to kind of have like like rethink the structure of things. And I think that's where we are at now for the whole NFT space. Like, how do we do it? How do we achieve this realistically where everyone wins? Not just say like one company wins because they're selling a lot of shoes. But how does the basketball court company win? You know, the guys providing the game for these shoes and for the sports to be played. Absolutely. How does this whole ecosystem work? So I think that's a really good discussion. I definitely want to say, guys, check out Rev. Check out Sandbox. You know, check out all the stuff. Check out the NFT space. I hope you guys got a lot of information about NFTs here. And I definitely want to thank Yav for coming in as well. Do you want to have any ending notes on what you want to talk about? Like what you are building as well in the future? I think you talked about Rev already. Are there anything exciting coming for Rev? Well, for Rev, I mean, you know, we just announced the acquisition of Ninja stickers. So and we also recently, so which basically puts in Moto2, Moto3 and other assets in there. And obviously, we're building that out. The other thing is we also recently announced a partnership with Flow, which is basically the Dapper Labs, the CryptoKitties guys, between sort of Rev and Flow. So we're working closely around that as well. And MotoGP, some of the gameplay will be on Flow. But there'll be essentially a relationship between these two emerging ecosystems. And there's a lot more coming. So, you know, if you go visit our Telegram channel or if you go basically check out Rev, you know, RevMotorsports.com, you know, and sign up. We'll keep you informed on all of our developments. So awesome. Thank you for having me. No problem. Thank you for that great discussion. I played the devil's advocate. I hope that it was very interesting for you guys learning about the NSV space and definitely have a good discussion on this. Thank you guys so much for watching here. This is one of the most interesting live streams that I've ever done. Just having someone live come in and have a discussion. I hope you guys enjoyed it. I know there was like a few things with volume being consistent. I try my best. But, you know, this can be fixed in post, but it's very hard to fix when during live. So thank you guys so much for watching today. And, you know, hope you guys have a great time. I'll see you guys very soon. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. And let me.